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VK5QX > LOST 09.10.04 06:46l 413 Lines 15875 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : E00922VK5QX
Read: GUEST
Subj: USA TIME ZONES/G0TEZ (PART 2)
Path: DB0FHN<DB0MRW<DB0WUE<DK0WUE<DB0RES<ON0AR<VK6HGR<VK5UJ<VK5BRC<VK5SPG<
VK5LZ
Sent: 041007/1028Z @:VK5LZ.#ADL.#SA.AUS.OC #:27621 [Elizabeth] $:E00922VK5QX
From: VK5QX@VK5LZ.#ADL.#SA.AUS.OC
To : LOST@WW
GETTING IT RIGHT (PART 2.)
THIS IS A COPY OF MY BULLETIN SENT TO G0TEZ FOLLOWING HIS MESSED UP
BULLETIN THAT HE (INADVERTENTLY) SENT DIRECTLY TO ME, RATHER THAN PLACING
IT ON THE NETWORK AS A BULLETIN. (HIS OBVIOUS MISTAKE.)
To : G0TEZ @G0TEZ.GB7HVU.#16.GBR.EU
Type : P
Date/time : 06-Oct 22:45
Bid : E50916VK5QX
Title : Re: USA TIME ZONES
OBVIOUSLY SOME MISUNDERSTANDING (??)
Hello Ian,
I received the message, attached below, from you as a "P" type message.
I have to wonder if you perhaps intended it to be sent as a bulletin.
I was rather surprised at the first sentence, namely;
" Ian VK5QX doesn't seem to understand the objections to non standard
time and the reasons for it. "
My surprise is due to the fact that I have made NO COMMENT AT ALL about
the matters of "non standard time" (whatever that is supposed to be)
neither have I made any comment regarding possible objections to same or
reasons, as suggested by you.
I therefore think that you may have been rather hasty in making some
assumptions, OR, you did not read my bulletin on the subject of USA Time
Zones (and other additional general comment) properly OR you did not
properly understand what I wrote.
I suggest that you may wish to take another look at the subject in general
and, if you wish to put out a bulletin, you may also wish to re-think your
comments.
The facts of the matter are that;
I did recently see some bulletins referring to the matter of time zones
etc., however I took little notice of them. I did not enter into any of
the discussions to do with the subject of time zones.
Another "surprise" was when I received a "P" type message from N1WKO
providing ME with some information regarding USA Time Zones.
I HAD NOT MADE ANY COMMENT ABOUT THE SUBJECT, as I have already indicated
above!! Neither had I asked any questions about USA time zones.
You will note that, in the bulletin that I then placed on the network, I
provided a copy of the message from N1WKO which was sent to me, as I see
it, for no real apparent reason.
He/she did seem to be muddled up, certainly to some degree. The title used
in his message, which I did refer to in MY bulletin, was rather strange,
i.e. Re: ISS Status report, 04-43 "
I did suspect, from his wording, that he was trying to answer questions
posed by someone other than myself. Presumably someone else named Ian.
In fact, the possibility occurred to me that he could have been providing
an answer to questions asked by you.
I could have ignored his message.
I could have sent him a reply asking what on earth he was trying to tell
me.
Instead, I took the way by which HIS information could be promulgated to
all and sundry, without delaying the flow of information, by immediately
passing on a copy of his, N1WKO's, message.
At the same time I thought that some further information and comment about
what happens here in Australia regarding Time Zones, as well as a few
other comments generally, may be of interest to some people.
So, I just don't see any reason for you to have made the claim regarding
myself, as you have done as per your message to me.
Further, the wording of your message that you have sent to me is rather
unusual in that you have only "referred to" me and not addressed me in
person. e.g. "Ian VK5QX doesn't seem to understand . . . etc."
I repeat; From that I can assume that you made a mistake and meant your
words to go out as a bulletin.
IF THAT WAS THE CASE, I see your comment as being totally out of line with
both my words and my actions.
I have recourse to, at least, two possible actions.
1. To send this message direct to you as a "Personal" (P Type) message and
wait for you to correct the situation.
IF you do nothing about the matter, and I do not receive a reply, I can
take further action.
2. I can send out a copy of each of the messages concerned.
i.e. your message to me, a copy of this message to you, and another copy
of my bulletin containing, again, another copy of the message from N1WKO.
That should (presumably) make the matter clear to those who care to read
what has been said.
I could also make yet another assumption, although it could be somewhat
wide of the mark.
That is, that you have indeed placed a bulletin on the network, maybe just
restricted to the U.K. etc., and not directed towards VK, as I have not
seen any such bulletin here.
You "may have" then decided to send ME a copy of what you have said.
So, please, as I suggest, take yet another good look at what I said in my
bulletin.
I think that you will find that I did not comment on the matters in the
way that you have suggested.
I have added, below, another copy of both my comments and those of the USA
based station.
I reiterate that I have had no trouble on my many visits to the USA as far
as their time zones are concerned.
I also have no major problems with regard to the various time zones around
the world, and the relationships of these to time here in Australia.
WE often have cause to make direct contact with friends and relatives in
the U.K. I have also, for many years, recorded in my station log book, all
my HF DX operations (well over 300 countries contacted) in GMT.
(In fact, most DXing Amateur Radio operators have used GMT for QSLing
purposes from way back when such an activity started.)
I thus have no trouble in almost immediate determination of U.K. time,
including the Daylight Saving adjustments, without needing recourse to any
time charts etc. (A quick and easy mental calculation is all that is
needed.)
The same also applies pretty much to the USA local times, again
ascertained with a quick mental calculation.
What therefore is it that I apparently do not "seem to understand", apart
from the meaning of your unusual wording of "non standard" time.
Incidentally, being here on one of the more unusual "odd half hour" time
zones, tends to make one perhaps a little more conscious as regards the
matter of time zones in general.
Carrying out operational work on satellite tracking and telemetry for NASA
for quite some time back in the 1960's required us to always use GMT for
record purposes. (This was within an American controlled network.)
One certainly became quite used to this. That undoubtedly was also the
case for ALL those involved in the world-wide Satellite Tracking and Data
Acquisition Network (STADAN).
Regards,
Ian
__________
73 de Ian, VK5QX
@ VK5LZ.#ADL.#SA.AUS.OC
06 October 2004
__________
P.S. "Z" Time was in existence LONG BEFORE "UTC" came along.
UTC was NOT invented by the French. It was adopted on the basis of an
internationally general convention as to how to apply the methods of time
reference based on the (then) newly developed atomic time standards.
(You will hear announcements from various Time Standard stations (in
English) regarding "Co-ordinated Universal Time". i.e. the standard
English translation for UTC.)
You made general comment in your message about time usage.
One could read this and perhaps understand your general point of view,
although I have never before heard of any "objections" from the U.K. as
regards being listed "last".
However, we also see announcements in British time when you people refer
to various events taking place in the U.K.
So what's so different that you do there to what the Americans do?
And; Why the need for the "snide" comments at the end regarding the
Americans?
Your second last sentence, "They only give times in their various
zones through ignorance,it would appear." does not seem to make any sense.
All in the good name of the spirit of Amateur Radio, I guess.
__________
COPY OF PREVIOUS BULLETIN WITH MESSAGE FROM N1WKO
==========================================================================
From: VK5QX@VK5LZ.#ADL.#SA.AUS.OC
To : TZ@WW
AN EXPLANATION. (THANKS TO N1WKO.)
I have provided below a copy of a "Personal" (P Type) message that I
received from N1WKO, somewhat to my surprise.
I had noted that there was some discussion on the "network" regarding time
zones in the USA, however, I was not the person who queried aspects of
same.
I have had a relatively large amount of experience travelling in the USA
having visited over 20, or so, states including Hawaii and Alaska.
The mainland states visited range right across from the west to the east
coast of the country.
I have never encountered anything in the way of a problem as far as time
zones there are concerned.
I also have a certain amount of regular contact with the USA and also
places in Europe and a fair understanding of the time relationships that
exist between those continents and Australia.
I did note some recent comment from another "VK" station regarding Time
Zones here.
The standard time zones number only three across the country.
VK1, the Australian Capital Territory, VK2, New South Wales, VK3,
Victoria, VK4, Queensland and VK7, Tasmania, all share the same standard
time zone, however, VK4 does not use Daylight Saving Time and VK7 does its
own thing as far as dates for change are concerned.
VK8, the Northern Territory, is on the same time Zone as VK5, South
Australia, except where Daylight Saving Time is concerned.
VK6, Western Australia, is 2 hours behind the eastern states.
It may be of interest to note that here in VK5 our time reference is to an
"odd half hour meridian" as against the even hour time allocations used in
most parts of the world.
I believe that some of the previous USSR areas may have used odd half hour
time zones and perhaps also some area(s) in the Middle East may have done
so.
Somehow I also remember hearing about "Arabic Time" where all clocks were
"set to midnight at sundown". (???)
There has been reference in the Packet Network discussions to such terms
as UTC., GMT, etc., however, I don't believe that I have seen any comment
regarding Time Zones indicated as letters.
Reference has, in the past, often been made to GMT as being "Z" or "Zulu"
Time.
Here in South Australia, lying between two normal time zones and at the
odd half-hour, our time has often been referred to as being "IK". i.e.
between zones "I" and "K". (Presumably there is no "J" Time.)
My understanding is that such usage is probably of military origin. I
wonder if such terminology is still in common use.
I have also noticed, of recent years, a tendency for people to refer to
"Daylight Savings Time" (using the plural term) rather than "Daylight
Saving Time", which was the expression used for many past years. In fact,
back to the 1930 and 40's era.
Somehow the plural version grates upon my ears to a degree.
There is almost always a grizzle from someone or other as to the efficacy,
convenience, or otherwise, of having Daylight Saving Time foist upon us.
Some suggest, although not many I believe, that we (VK5) should remain
permanently on Daylight Saving Time.
I feel that some business people may see some advantages in this.
Others seem to think that we here in VK5 should go to another extra half
hour ahead of current time to coincide with the eastern states.
This suggestion does not meet with much approbation as it would
undoubtedly seem to produce a somewhat unnatural situation as far as
daytime and nightime relationships are concerned. It so happens that our
half hour time zone point is certainly not centrally situated with regard
to the state's overall location.
Here now is the message received from N1WKO.
(The nature of the "Title" also has me somewhat puzzled.)
==========================================================================
From :N1WKO @KD1JG.CT.USA.NA
To :VK5QX
Date/time :30-Sep 04:32
Message # :158036
Title :Re: ISS Status report, 04-43
Path: !VK5LZ!VK5SPG!VK5BRC!VK5ATB!VK2AAB!N7QDN!K1UOL!K1UOL!N1URO!
R:040930/0432z @:KD1JG.CT.USA.NA [Middletown, CT] #:20369 $:20367_KD1JG
EDT is -4 from Zulu time - It stands for Eastern Daylight Time
The last Sunday in October, we will be going back to EST which is -5 from
Zulu time. That stands for Eastern Standard Time. EDT and EST includes
states from the East coast of the US to Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky,
Tennesse, and Mississippi. The next time zone over is the Central (CDT
and
CST) time zone. Then there's the Mountain and Pacific time zones. That
doesn't include Alaska (which has 4 time zones of its own), nor Hawaii.
I hope that answers your question, and didn
didn't bore you too much.
73 de N1WKO
==========================================================================
"P" TYPE MESSAGE FROM G0TEZ TO VK5QX
(Possibly initially intended as a bulletin ?)
__________
" From :G0TEZ @G0TEZ.GB7HVU.#16.GBR.EU
To :VK5QX
Date/time :02-Oct 17:07
Message # :158306
Title :Re: USA TIME ZONES
Path: !VK5LZ!VK5SPG!VK5ASF!VK7AX!ZL2BAU!GB7MAX!GB7SAM!GB7OAR!GB7BOB!
!GB7HVU!
R:20041002/1707GMT @G0TEZ.GB7HVU.#16.GBR.EU [Nelson NW England] #:10 TPK
v1.83d
Ian VK5QX doesn't seem to understand the objections to non standard
time and the reasons for it.
MY clock says 5:45 P.M. as I start to write this and that suits me,
though it is getting dark early now as winter approaches. 2 AM on
the
nearest Sunday to 21 Oct will be when the clocks go back to GMT.
I have no problem with local time. If I get on an aeroplane to Paris
or Amsterdam and the flight takes an hour, I am quite alright with
arriving
at the time I took off as CET is 1 Hr ahead of British time. We even put
our clocks on to BST for us and DST for the rest of EU. The French can
live by French time and the Yanks by their various regional
times, I don't care.
What does bother me is world events being quoted in local time.
Space launches are an example of this. If a rocket takes off at 3 pm is it
US time, EU time UK local or GMT?
WE invented GMT when we discovered how to measure Longitude eaxactly
with an accurate clock aboard ship. The ships had to have a standard time
so we picked on the time at Greenwich, near London and called it
Greenwich mean Time.
0ø 0' 0@ Longitude is also at greenwich. All the map references in
the world are relative to that copper strip running past the
observatory at Greenwich, no matter where in the world you are.
The French were never happy with this. The reasons go a far way back
in history, so they invented a time they called Universale Temps
Coordon‚es (UTC) which is based on Paris, Time Zone Alpha. A couple
of letters are missed out, so that,by the time you have gone around
the world youre in the last TZ, they call Zulu or 'z', Greenwich.
Naturally we object to being last when we imvented something as big as
the world's time standard.
The Americans, who are proud of their inventors and think, e.g.,
that Edison invented everything would fight tooth and nail if another
nation tried to take away standard time if it was based on a line
through the White House.
They only give times in their various zones through ignorance,it
would appear.
That, as far as I'm concerned, is the bottom line.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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* G0TEZ@GB7HVU.#16.GBR.EU *
* _______ *
* _______ | _ \ ___ __ *
* | || |_) | | | / | *
* |__ __|| ___/ | |/ / *
* | | |___| | \ *
* |_ _| 1.83d|_ _| \_ _| *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
iang0tez@fsmail.net
==========================================================================
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