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ZL3AI > APRDIG 06.03.04 12:28l 244 Lines 9229 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Mar 04, 2/14
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:13:14 -0500
X-Message-Number: 9
Actually Jim...
SGATE does do something... It takes that signal and moves it over to
144.390... Folks that use SGATE are asking for their signal to be moved
from the SatCom freq and go to 144.390. It works the same as "GATE" in HF.
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Ernie Zingleman" <ks4q@zingleman.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:18:09 -0500
X-Message-Number: 10
I'm relatively new to APRS but I've been involved with packet on a large
scale the last 3 to 4 years and am involved in wireless data network design
in my work.
A true 'aloha' network, at some % loading factor, breaks down very rapidly
with only slightly more traffic.. It is much like a municipal freeway that
can suddenly go from speed limit speeds to a crawl with only a few
additional vehicles on a road. The bottom line is that increased contention
on the channel kills data throughput disproportionately...or should I say
exponentially?
Clearly, in some areas, the network will begin to breakdown and the
usefulness of the infrastructure that was put up to benefit all will only be
able to help a few.
I gather that the philosophy all along has been to keep the control of how
the packet is forwarded in the hands of the 'originator.' I don't know
that 'wide7-7' is gaining the user anything at all....'''maybe''' he needs
some multiple hops. But once he gets the traffic in earshot of an IGATE,
any further relaying is ony a waste of bandwidth. Right?
In one of WB4APR's papers, a revealing analysis was done. Assuming that
each digi can hear three other digis, a single packet that originated with
'wide7-7' ultimately creates a total of 111 packets!
If some sanity does not come to all this, sysops may be forced to
proactively established a greater degree of control on traffic forwarding at
the APRS digi level. Some people you just can't talk sense to. Plus, why
let the network be ruined for all just so a few can have their way.
Here in the Atlanta area, 144.39 is getting very saturated with traffic. I
myself am taking the advice of WB4APR and others to help ensure that the new
UIDIGI that I'm putting in service tomorrow helps the network rather than
hinders it with redundant traffic.
Ultimately, the solution is user education as most APRS users approach the
technology as if it is an appliance. Plus, if you think that your digi may
be repeating too much traffic, it probably is. Again, it is lack of
knowledge that is the cause. Once we all know better, we can do better.
If you find this provactive, please take ten deep breaths first before you
reply.
Ernie KS4Q
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:19:32 -0800 (PST)
X-Message-Number: 11
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Christensen, Eric wrote:
>We really need a way to intercept the packets on the IS and filter them OUT!
>That is the only way to get these people to change. And I don't want to
>hear anything about "this is what I want from my station... you shouldn't
>tell me how to use my own equipment" because that just comes from an
>uneducated user. People out there that use WIDE7-7, or the like, are only
>thinking about themselves and not how that path affects other users on the
>network.
Another way: Run digi_ned digipeaters and tweak the paths so that they
make sense in the particular environment. The IGATE portion could be
chopped off easily, and any paths greater than what the region can bear
could be changed to the recommended settings (and decrement the 2nd number
for the WIDEn-N or TRACEn-N if the packet already went through some
digi's).
Yea, I know the arguments for/against. They've been discussed here many
times. My opinion: Sometimes one packet has to be sacrificed for the good
of the many. Yes, I'm a Star Trek fan...
--
Curt, WE7U archer at eskimo dot com
Arlington, WA, USA http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:21:49 -0700
X-Message-Number: 12
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
>Actually Jim...
>
>SGATE does do something... It takes that signal and moves it over to
>144.390... Folks that use SGATE are asking for their signal to be moved
>from the SatCom freq and go to 144.390. It works the same as "GATE" in HF.
I did not say it didn't do anything.
Jim
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: Earl Needham <needhame1@yucca.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:27:42 -0700
X-Message-Number: 13
At 10:08 AM 3/4/2004, Christensen, Eric wrote:
>We really need a way to intercept the packets on the IS and filter them OUT!
>That is the only way to get these people to change. And I don't want to
>hear anything about "this is what I want from my station... you shouldn't
>tell me how to use my own equipment" because that just comes from an
>uneducated user. People out there that use WIDE7-7, or the like, are only
>thinking about themselves and not how that path affects other users on the
>network.
If you repeat something long enough, people tend to believe it, right?
As in "no path should ever be longer than 2 hops". At least I think people
are starting to think that.
If I use 2 hops, I don't get to any other station manned by a human unless
I'm on the TCP/IP feed. PLEASE DON'T GENERALIZE ABOUT PATHS UNLESS YOU
HAVE BEEN EVERYWHERE THERE IS TO BE.
7 3
Earl
Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1
-EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630>
SETI@Home: 11385WU/7.39yrs
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:35:00 -0700
X-Message-Number: 14
I am pretty sure UI-VIEW32 has this feature...look under NOGATE in the
igate.ini file help.
Jim, WA6OFT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
>We really need a way to intercept the packets on the IS and filter them OUT!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:38:41 -0500
X-Message-Number: 15
Dang Jim! You ARE smarter than the average bear... Why didn't I think of
that... Only thing is that we would either need to get ALL Igates to do
this or we need to implement something at the server level. The most
effective way would be to use this at the digi level but as I have found
some digipeater owners are offenders as well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Spider [mailto:spider@rivcom.net]
I am pretty sure UI-VIEW32 has this feature...look under NOGATE in the
igate.ini file help.
Jim, WA6OFT
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:48:10 -0500
X-Message-Number: 16
A lot of problems come from other posting things like this at their
websites:
UI-View / UIDIGI UNPROTO Settings
APRS,TRACE7-7
(Quick and easy digi's via 7 stations this is the best setting - This is
mostly used in the UK)
APRS,WIDE7-7
(The same as trace, but uses Wide digi's - Mostly used in the US)
APRS,RELAY,TRACE3-3
(good for mobiles)
APRS,TRACE7-7,WIDE7-7
(don't use this it causes some TNC's to crash)
I'm not going to say where this came from BUT I wish folks would specify
where they should use such paths. APRS,WIDE7-7 should not be used in 90+%
of the US.
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Subject: RE: stir up the path pot!
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:53:06 -0500
X-Message-Number: 17
Is there a way to do this WITHOUT a computer sitting there? I know there
are significant problems with the dups reduction in the Kantronics
Digipeaters but there are some locations that a computer couldn't be used
(i.e. on a tower platform at 1200ft).
-----Original Message-----
From: Curt, WE7U [mailto:archer@eskimo.com]
Another way: Run digi_ned digipeaters and tweak the paths so that they make
sense in the particular environment. The IGATE portion could be chopped off
easily, and any paths greater than what the region can bear could be changed
to the recommended settings (and decrement the 2nd number for the WIDEn-N or
TRACEn-N if the packet already went through some digi's).
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