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ZL3AI > APRDIG 08.02.04 14:46l 296 Lines 11255 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Feb 05, 5/7
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: maps
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:32:45 -0500
X-Message-Number: 33
Tit for tat aside, the fact that FINDU is having a problem validates my
point. You have no drop-in replacement to solve the problem. Nothing is free
in this world, and if you depend on single source to freeload massive amounts
of bandwidth, their will be disruptions and continued scrambling to fix them.
I was suggesting a distributed system, TO THE APRSWORLD FOLKS, that would be
less affected by these things. Not withstanding all the people you claim are
throwing T3's at you, I still think this is better design for a hobbyist
non-profit free network.
And do note you where responding to questions not directed at yourself.
BTW, the tower analogy works both ways. When designing a RF system, do you go
with a big hooting tower (big pipe) or lots of smaller towers on folks that
have vested interests (hams or small servers). It was my understanding, that
basically APRS is designed on this principle and by and large, high profile
digi's are frowned upon.
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:57:58 -0500, Steve Dimse wrote:
>>I'll jump to a conclusion here and guess this "free bandwidth" is
>>not really free, but a gift or has some other catch to it, and
>>could dissapear at a moments notice.
>>
>So can a commercial co-lo site you pay for.
Not unless they want you to take recourse against them, this would be a
violation of contract law.
>>If your going to (re)design a system to service a non-profit hobby
>>market, you want to remove choke points in the system, be they
>>technical, political or monetary.
>To me, the issue is no different than the ancient ham dilema of
>tower space. Hams generally can't afford prime space on tall towers,
>yet they usually get it donated,
Right, but that has nothing to do with FINDU. AFAIK, you are using the
MAPBLAST servers without their express permission, i.e. a free lunch. If they
are donating it, I'd get a short note from them saying so. That is what I did
when I ran my hamgate at the Farmington MI library.
>I think the tower analgy is quite appropriate in another way...if
>you want to provide wide area VHF communications to an area, the
>answer isn't to put up 10' poles at hundreds of ham's houses
I think most of the poles are 30" or so... doesn't that describe APRS?
and
>develop a "thinking outside the box" solution of interconnecting
>them (look at what happens to cell phones in emergencies),
That has nothing to do with the capacity, it has to do with overbooking of
the system exceeding the capacity.
>rather it
>is to provide a number of redundant, independent, geographically
>separated repeaters on towers hundreds or thousands of feet high.
Still, APRS is a packet digital service, not a analog voice service. The
rules are different.
>If you don't have access to high towers, or big bandwidth, then by
>all means make use of what you have.
EXACTLY. And that was my point, you need to consider that "use what you have"
system. Distributed mapping. AFAIK, that does not yet exist.
> THIS IS ALL I WAS SUGGESTING < IT WAS NOT DIRECTED AT FINDU OR STEVE
DIMSE. Run it any way you want.
I'm done
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Subject: Re: maps
From: James Jefferson <jj@aprsworld.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:37:33 -0600
X-Message-Number: 34
I haven't found a killer app for all of that bandwidth either. For those that
are not familar, Internet2 is an alternate high speed backbone connecting
research instituions.
I'm looking at the MRTG graphs right now for us and people we peer with, and
it looks like the 155 megabit line is running about 30 megabits peak. It
actually is possible to saturate a 100 megabit ethernet card when talking
across internet2 between two universities. It's sweet.
Of course it isn't designed to be at 100% capacity like everything else is
either. It is designed to support experimental applications and moving large
ammounts of research data.
-Jim
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Subject: Wi-Sys All-in-One APRS system (except radio)
From: "Christensen, Eric" <CHRISTENSENE@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:34:37 -0500
X-Message-Number: 35
http://www.wi-sys.com/products/aprs/7110.php
Anyone using one of these???
73s,
Eric KF4OTN
AMSAT Member: 35360
TAPR Member: 8869
All contact logs are uploaded to the ARRL LoTW and eQSL.
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Subject: Re: maps
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:44:56 -0500
X-Message-Number: 36
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:35:33 -0600 (CST), Sean \\The RIMBoy\\ wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff King wrote:
>What/which APRS-IS servers? Are you talking about central servers,
>Tier 2, or igates in general?
In general. Do a traceroute, I'm not going to spoonfeed you. Distributed
computing has a solid foundation and is well suited for APRS. I'm not
interest in debating this. Yes, it is easier to have a big fat pipe..I'm
just suggesting that it is a sole source of failure.
>At this point we're splitting hairs. To round robin several DSL
>connections in an attempt to solve the problem is hairy at best and
>asking for trouble at worst. I don't disagree with the idea of
>round robin, but asking DSL connections to step up to the plate in
>this situation is not a good solution.
10% of something is better then 100% of nothing.
>>On the other hand, my home office class SDSL, 784K/784K that I had,
>>performed quite well, 4 static IP's and was $80 a month (first
>>concentric, then XO). I could do whatever I wanted with it. Looking
>>at DSL reports:
>
>I don't know that it'd be enough, even round robin. Likewise,
>you're one of the few that seems to be able to get reasonable SDSL
>at a reasonable price.
http://www.dslreports.com It also helped that I had a contract with XO
and they honored it. Funny thing about those commercial contracts.
>Distributed, but only across facilities that offer plenty of
>bandwidth. DSL is not the solution to this problem.
Whatever, I'll take it any way I can. Distributed it is. We agree.
73
Jeff
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Subject: Re: Wi-Sys All-in-One APRS system (except radio)
From: "Stephen H. Smith" <WA8LMF2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:59:57 -0800
X-Message-Number: 37
Christensen, Eric wrote on 2/5/2004, 1:34 PM:
>http://www.wi-sys.com/products/aprs/7110.php
>
>Anyone using one of these???
It's been posted here before. A bit pricy (at $350) for what amounts
the equivalent of a TinyTrack or TigerTrak combined with a generic GPS
receiver....
Stephen H. Smith wa8lmf (at) aol.com
Home Page: http://wa8lmf.com
Ham Radio/Mobile SSTV page: http://members.aol.com/wa8lmf/ham
APRS Stuff
http://members.aol.com/wa8lmf/aprs
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Subject: Re: Wi-Sys All-in-One APRS system (except radio)
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:07:58 -0800
X-Message-Number: 38
No kidding. I thought $15 for a nice extruded aluminum case for my next
tracker project was a lot, but if it means I can mark it up another $200, I
think I'll go for it. =]
Scott
N1VG
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Subject: Re: maps
From: "Sean \\The RIMBoy\\" <sean@rimboy.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:28:21 -0600 (CST)
X-Message-Number: 39
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff King wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:35:33 -0600 (CST), Sean \\The RIMBoy\\ wrote:
>>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff King wrote:
>>What/which APRS-IS servers? Are you talking about central servers,
>>Tier 2, or igates in general?
>
>In general. Do a traceroute, I'm not going to spoonfeed you.
Well, clarify your broad statement before spouting off. First, second,
and fourth all sit on well connected backbones. I cannot tell with third
because traceroutes are not the answer to everything. To say that APRS-IS
runs on DSL is misleading at best. The APRS-IS igates run on DSL/ISDN,
true. The Tier 1 and to an extent Tier 2 all reside on better than DSL
connections.
>Distributed computing has a solid foundation and is well suited for
>APRS.
You mean to tell me that we'll be able to modify the seti@home code and
use it to serve maps? distributed.net's code will do what we want?
Great. LMK when that's ready to run.
Distributed computing IMO implies using various resources to solve a
problem. Your suggestion is not distributed computing, it's distributed
serving, aka load balancing.
Distributed computing (such as what the aformentioned I2 schools are
attempting to do) implies some sort of fault tolerance. Round robin DNS
is not fault tolerant to the point that we can achieve what you think can
be done. If all servers stay up and running then yes, it might achieve
that nirvana you propose. However, seeing how fluid all parts of the
APRS-IS system are (nevermind the internet), you'll be doing good to see
as good of results as we've seen. Can it be achieved? maybe. But the
work and complexity involved negates the goals you think can be achieved.
>I'm not interest in debating this.
No, you just want to brow beat us with your opinion. You've stated your
case. We've heard you. Please listen to us when we tell you why it's not
feasible.
>Yes, it is easier to have a big fat pipe..I'm just suggesting that it is
>a sole source of failure.
There are many portions of the internet that are sole sources of failure.
At some point you have to cut your losses.
>10% of something is better then 100% of nothing.
Why advertise something that's only operating at 10%... nothing like
leaving users fustrated. Do it right. And if you can do it right by your
proposal, go ahead. We're trying to be realistic here. It's not like
we're designing a hospital network.
>http://www.dslreports.com It also helped that I had a contract with XO
>and they honored it. Funny thing about those commercial contracts.
Yeah. How many of us want to go thru the trouble of trying to get
commercial grade DSL when either we cannot get it or it costs to much?
You've got a great price. More power to you.
>>Distributed, but only across facilities that offer plenty of
>>bandwidth. DSL is not the solution to this problem.
>
>Whatever, I'll take it any way I can. Distributed it is. We agree.
To this I say, build it, make it happen. If you can demonstrate your
stuff works, great. We'll sign on. Until then, don't tell us how to
build the network. You've made your point. You can argue that 10% is
better than none, but I'd rather live without than limp along with
something that's half-baked.
Sean...
--
The punk rock will get you if the government don't get you first.
--Old 97's
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
KG4NRC http://www.rimboy.com Your source for the crap you know you need.
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