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ZL3AI > APRDIG 08.02.04 13:25l 254 Lines 10137 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: maps
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:21:51 -0500
X-Message-Number: 26
On 2/5/04 at 2:12 PM James Jefferson <jj@aprsworld.net> sent:
>I don't have any significant shortage of bandwidth. I have approximately a 70
>megabit pipe to the internet and a 150 megabit pipe to internet2.
Would you like an old findU server? After the new server swaps in I'll have
a extra box, it is the original findU machine, Indybox with dual 550 (or is
it 450???) MHz PIII, 384MB RAM (might have more lying around the house I
can drop in) and ATA Drives, forget how big they are. I had been using it
as the server on the Keys house DSL line until last week when the new
server arrived here for configuration. Not exactly state-of-the-art, but
I'll give it to you if it will help.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: maps
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:28:13 -0500
X-Message-Number: 27
OK, I'll bite...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:12:06 -0600, James Jefferson wrote:
>I have approximately a 70 megabit pipe to the internet
1. How much are you paying for this?
2. Do you think you are being charged a fair price?
3. Do you have a contract for this service?
4. Can I buy this also?
5. If you have a tantrum, get hit with a bus or some other action that causes
you to loose interest, are you deeding this access to APRS forever?
I'll jump to a conclusion here and guess this "free bandwidth" is not
really free, but a gift or has some other catch to it, and could dissapear
at a moments notice.
If your going to (re)design a system to service a non-profit hobby market,
you want to remove choke points in the system, be they technical, political
or monetary.
If a non-profit "free" amateur radio internet application needs much more
then half a T1 to work (at any one location), I'd seriously question the
long term viability of it, because it depends on someone else paying for
it.
Not demanding, suggesting or otherwise conjouling for anyone to do this.
Just hoping folks that are designing applications like this realize there
is no such thing as a free lunch, and when you depend on free lunches, you
go hungry occasionally.
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 02/05/2004
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Subject: Re: maps
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:41:21 -0500
X-Message-Number: 28
On 2/5/04 at 3:21 PM Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org> sent:
>Would you like an old findU server? After the new server swaps in I'll have a
>extra box, it is the original findU machine, Indybox with dual 550 (or is it
oops, I had meant to send that privately...
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: FindU maps
From: Matt Murphy <web8ck@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:43:19 -0800 (PST)
X-Message-Number: 29
Hopefully this is just a fluke then. Keep up the good work Steve!
Matthew, kc8bew
Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org> wrote:
On 2/5/04 at 9:07 AM Matt Murphy sent:
>I forgot what you had said about the users outside of
>the US. Hopefully another company/group out there
>would help you out with the maps. What does MapBlast
>say about using them now? Being encrypted they
>probably don't want to give it out now right?
They are not encrypted now, the problem seems to be one of loading. If you
hit refresh a few times, sometimes maps will pop up. I'm thinking they
closed down most of the server farm, leaving less capacity than findU
needs, requests that connot be handled are sent the
They switched the server on mapblast.com to encryption, but did not change
the one on vicinity.com. Interestingly, originally vicinity.com was a US
only server, and it appears that they are once again using a US only
database.
As long as it still works occasionally, I'll hold hope that this is just an
unexpected problem in their system, and they will return to the prior
capacity, but every day it remains crippled makes it less likely.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: maps
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:57:58 -0500
X-Message-Number: 30
On 2/5/04 at 3:28 PM Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net> sent:
>On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:12:06 -0600, James Jefferson wrote:
>>I have approximately a 70 megabit pipe to the internet
>
>1. How much are you paying for this?
>2. Do you think you are being charged a fair price?
>3. Do you have a contract for this service?
>4. Can I buy this also?
>5. If you have a tantrum, get hit with a bus or some other action that causes
>you to loose interest, are you deeding this access to APRS forever?
I can't speak to Jim's deal, but when I needed to move findU off the DSL
line and asked for space, I got 4 different offers I considered great,
meaning secure, power conditioned sites with multiple OC-somethings (ADS
last I heard had an OC-12 and a pair of OC-3's). There were perhaps 10 more
with "only" multiple T-1 and T-3 lines.
>I'll jump to a conclusion here and guess this "free bandwidth" is not really
>free, but a gift or has some other catch to it, and could dissapear at a
>moments notice.
So can a commercial co-lo site you pay for. My point of view on this is
space donated from a high-up person in a stable company is as good as life
gets. And should the company fold, I would ask on the sig for new site and
likely get several fresh great offers.
>If your going to (re)design a system to service a non-profit hobby market,
>you want to remove choke points in the system, be they technical, political
>or monetary.
To me, the issue is no different than the ancient ham dilema of tower
space. Hams generally can't afford prime space on tall towers, yet they
usually get it donated, because the people in control of such things are
often hams, or they do it for the good hams provide.
I think the tower analgy is quite appropriate in another way...if you want
to provide wide area VHF communications to an area, the answer isn't to put
up 10' poles at hundreds of ham's houses and develop a "thinking outside
the box" solution of interconnecting them (look at what happens to cell
phones in emergencies), rather it is to provide a number of redundant,
independent, geographically separated repeaters on towers hundreds or
thousands of feet high.
If you don't have access to high towers, or big bandwidth, then by all
means make use of what you have. However, when you can get access for free
to the best, then that is what you should be using.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: maps
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:14:45 -0500
X-Message-Number: 31
Yes, I am aware of the limitations of consumer class ADSL, none-the-less, a
significant portion of APRS-IS servers are running on such.
On the other hand, my home office class SDSL, 784K/784K that I had, performed
quite well, 4 static IP's and was $80 a month (first concentric, then XO). I
could do whatever I wanted with it. Looking at DSL reports:
The idea is to base what one has, or adapt what one has, so that it can not
overly stress network points (meaning, not having to pay big bucks for big
pipes). A distributed map system, as you suggest, might be able to do this.
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 02/05/2004
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Subject: Re: maps
From: "Sean \\The RIMBoy\\" <sean@rimboy.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:35:33 -0600 (CST)
X-Message-Number: 32
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, Jeff King wrote:
>Yes, I am aware of the limitations of consumer class ADSL, none-the-less, a
>significant portion of APRS-IS servers are running on such.
What/which APRS-IS servers? Are you talking about central servers, Tier
2, or igates in general?
Maybe some Tier 2, but that's a maybe. We (meaning Nashvilleaprs.net)
make sure our tier 2 servers are on at least a full T-1 if not better.
Everyone else can then use their ISDN or DSL to connect to those servers.
Yeah, most of your igates are running on DSL/ISDN, however those are not
central hubs that require bandwidth.
The better question is, have we defined APRS-IS servers and if so, what is
that definition? To me, APRS-IS servers are first thru fourth.aprs.net,
the Tier 2 servers and that's it. Yeah, you might run an iGate server,
but that to me seems more like a client, providing a feed to another
system that can better handle the load demanded by the APRS-IS. To put it
another way, an iGate is an iGate, not something you'd advertise for
people to connect to for an APRS-IS stream.
At this point we're splitting hairs. To round robin several DSL
connections in an attempt to solve the problem is hairy at best and asking
for trouble at worst. I don't disagree with the idea of round robin, but
asking DSL connections to step up to the plate in this situation is not a
good solution.
>On the other hand, my home office class SDSL, 784K/784K that I had, performed
>quite well, 4 static IP's and was $80 a month (first concentric, then XO). I
>could do whatever I wanted with it. Looking at DSL reports:
I don't know that it'd be enough, even round robin. Likewise, you're one
of the few that seems to be able to get reasonable SDSL at a reasonable
price.
>The idea is to base what one has, or adapt what one has, so that it can not
>overly stress network points (meaning, not having to pay big bucks for big
>pipes). A distributed map system, as you suggest, might be able to do this.
Distributed, but only across facilities that offer plenty of bandwidth.
DSL is not the solution to this problem.
Sean...
--
The punk rock will get you if the government don't get you first.
--Old 97's
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KG4NRC http://www.rimboy.com Your source for the crap you know you need.
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