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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.11.03 20:25l 342 Lines 15816 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:46:29 -0500
X-Message-Number: 58
On 11/12/03 at 8:31 PM Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu> sent:
>See #1 and #2 and #3 and #4 and #5 above!
>When I see a TOXIC cloud, I want to:
Bob you aren't listening, I said this is the guy figuring out where the
toxic cloud is going to spread, not someone trying to figure out if a cloud
placed on APRS by someone else is going to hit them. So once again, let me
ask the question:
Bob.,.. Why does a guy concerned how the wind is going to spread a toxic
cloud need to now whether something is an object, where the digis are and
what kind of digi they are, or any of the things you think are so critical?
>>And, if someone is concerned just with wind spreading a toxic cloud,
>>they have enough to worry about, why should their senses be overloaded
>>with data they don't need????
>
>Overload? An ICON with a vector in a circle of color can convey ALL OF
>THAT in an instant and without "overload". The "overload" you refer to
>is client programs that have attempted to splatter all that textually
>around the ICON, when a simple graphic will do it far better (I only
>suggest color, do it whatever way but WITHOUT OVERLOAD!
Again, this is a guy using APRS to figure out the local ground level winds
and how they are going to affect the cloud. If you place every APRS object
and user on the display, with a bunch of different colors, DR circles on
mobiles he doesn't care about, and motion vectors criss-crossing the map,
it will be harder to see the wind vectors he cares about. With enough
clutter, entire weather stations will be hidden from his view.
>>Anyway, of the 6 things you show above, the clients I use grey out old
>>vs current, use vectors for movement, and show DR station.
>
>GREAT! THAT IS WHAT I AM ASKING FOR!!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Those clients then
>score high on the scale of implementation. They have implemented many of
>the attributes. Now we are beginning to communicate... I dont expect all
>clinets to display all attributes, but to STRIVE to implement as many as
>they can.
Bob, at the start of this, you said no client scored high (or really, above
0). Regardless, my point is that each author needs to be free to choose the
UI elements that fit his vision and meet the needs of his users. It is
wrong to require that all APRS clients include the UI elements YOU think
are important. If some of thesee are implemented, it is because the author
wanted them for himself or to fill the needs of his users.
You should express your ideas, but when other authors don't implement them,
you should not berate their efforts, accuse them of killing APRS, and/or
demand they implement them.
>>Maybe the other two are critical to you, but not so important to others,
>>otherwise those too would be shown. In any event, I certainly don't
>>think those two things (or even all 6) are going to be responsible for
>>the death of APRS as you claim.
>
>No, but clients that don't distinguish between moving and fixed ICONS,
>Dont distinguish between current and OLD objects, dont show dead-reckoning
>on moving objects, and dont show heading and speed will continue to
>contirbute in our inability to communicate well using APRS displays...
In your opinion. You certainly should share your opinion, but you also need
to understand others have different opinions, and respect them. Each
software author must be free to follow his vision and to meet the needs of
his users!
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:02:16 -0800
X-Message-Number: 59
>Xastir can show the most important information also with the icon, like
for
>example for moving stations speed and course and for WX stations the WX
>data like temperature and barometer pressure etc.
Ok, I see that now, though I don't care much for how it's laid out. I'd
rather have vector symbols, with lines indicating where they're at on the
map, with the symbols arranged so that they don't overlap if possible. Or
use small icons that explode out to the larger symbols when the mouse
pointer is over them.
Someone mentioned it may be time to get away from the military style. If
that's what you want, I suggest you look at another area that's done pretty
well with user interface - real-time strategy games. Starcraft is my
favorite - check out the screenshots at
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PC/starcraft/screens.html. There's
a lot of activity on the map display, but it's got a number of features
that make it easy to see critical information. First, the minimap in the
bottom left corner shows you the big picture, with units and their
affiliations clearly visible. Jumping to another point on the map is
simple and doesn't require changing zoom levels. I'd love to see this in
Xastir, and I hope that one of these days they're able to revamp their map
system in such a way that you can have multiple map windows open, and be
able to slave one map to another. Also, there's a clear indication on the
main display of what you've got selected. Every selected unit (there may
be up to 12) shows the most critical information in up to three color-coded
bargraphs under the unit. In APRS, this would be perfect for showing speed
and age, for example. Also, the detailed information pertaining to to the
selected unit is shown in the center panel at the bottom. The command
display on the right panel shows all applicable commands for the unit. If
multiple units are selected, they're shown in icon form in the center
panel, where you can review their graphs without the map clutter and modify
your selection based on that information.
My seven year old son was able to grasp all of this within half an hour of
sitting down at the computer. And the interface has shown that it hold up
well under stress. I understand that we've got orders of magnitude more
map information to display for APRS, especially if you've got
high-resolution topos or orthophotos, but I can live with slow refresh
rates as long as I've got a minimap to let me navigate effectively.
Scott
N1VG
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Subject: Re: Adding Frequency of TX to the Protocol[was:APRS'ProtocolHoles]
From: "Ev Tupis (W2EV)" <w2ev@arrl.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:10:04 -0500
X-Message-Number: 60
Steve Dimse wrote:
>>So...one can use a user defined packet format with every type of APRS frame,
>>then? Mic-e, compressed, etc?
>>
>No, they are a separate packet. There is no way you can add something to every
>packet without breaking every program that is out there.
Oh Steve, not only is this patently false, you are ne display, then the CLIENT software has not
done it right. I too hate clutter. Thats why I ask client software to be
innovate in how they display this information.
>8) Your objects or someone elses OBJECTS
>IMO, this is hardly a mandatory under the current APRS architecture. If
>you don't know when you generate an object, don't generate the object.
>Again, not necessary to be "seeable" at a glance.
ABSOLUTELY WRONG HERE! and it shows how asking joe blow off the street of
what he thinks about one-line topics with no clue how the system operates
is GUARANTEED to destroy a working system. For network reliability and
flexibility, Objects in APRS may be updated by ANYONE that has more
current or better data on the object. Thus you MUST KNOW WHO HAS CONTROL
of the object visually so that if you THINK you are the one updating it,
and someone else has moved it, YOU CAN SEE that INSTANTLY...
>From your posts, Bob. As you can see above, all but one of the 8
>attributes you want shown on all displays all of the time are not
>necessarily desirable by others.
Then I think you are not talking to people that have real experience with
tactical real time display systems updated with sampled data on a shared
lossy channel which cannot update more than a dozen or so objects at a
high enough rate to be real-time. Dead-reckoning and visualizing the
inherent latency in the displayed symbology is essential on our sampled
ssytem where we are trying to keep situational awareness on 50 or more
moving objects... with only very rare updates...
You may be talking to people who deal on HIGH SPEED networks with
REAL-TIME parallel paths for data from ALL units. THen there is no need
for dead reckoning nor displaying AGE... but that AIN'T APRS!
>I am not saying that everyone does not want to see these attributes all
>of the time, just that an author's decision to support or not to support
>one or more of these attributes is not ruining APRS nor adversely
>impacting the usability of each piece of software nor impairing our
>ability to communicate via APRS.
I disagree. Unless we have a commmon baseline of what minimum information
is seen by everyone, then we don't have a system where user A can send
APRS information to USER B of a----
Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:43:18 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 64
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Steve Dimse wrote:
>Bob you aren't listening, I said this is the guy figuring out where the
>toxic cloud is going to spread, not someone trying to figure out if a
>cloud placed on APRS by someone else is going to hit them. So once
>again, let me ask the question:
>
>Bob.,.. Why does a guy concerned how the wind is going to spread a toxic
>cloud need to now whether something is an object,...or any of the things
>you think are so critical?
Simple. BECAUSE HE MUST HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WHEN HE DOES FIGURE THAT OUT
AND HE DOES POST THAT INFORMATION ON APRS AS A TOXIC MOVING CLOUD OBJECT,
THAT HE HAS CONFIDENCE THAT ALL PEOPLE VIEWING IT WILL SEE WHAT HE
INTENDED!!!
When HE posts a moving TOXIC cloud object on APRS, HE ASSUMES:
1) That everyone else on the net will it see correctly
2) That others will know it is HIS object and not theirs
3) That others will SEE instantly that it is moving and in which direction
and how fast
4) That its velocity and direction will cause it to continue to MOVE in
that direction on their maps without having to clutter the channel with
continuous and frequent updates
5) That he only has to send an update when it changes course or speed
6) That in an hour or so, others who were not paying attention to the
sitution will know that it is an old report
7) That when he KILLS it, that others will see that it is killed
These are the kinds of attributes that are associated with symbology
(ICONS) on APRS maps and that we must assume that all client software
has implemented so that all users are sharing the same information...
>Again, this is a guy using APRS to figure out the local ground level
>winds and how they are going to affect the cloud. If you place every
>APRS object and user on the display, with a bunch of different colors,
>DR circles on mobiles he doesn't care about, and motion vectors
>criss-crossing the map, it will be harder to see the wind vectors he
>cares about. With enough clutter, entire weather stations will be hidden
>from his view.
Wow, you are mixing apples and oranges!!!! Every display should have the
ability to select layers of informaion. The WX guy wants to see just WX,
the dispatcher only needs to see the mobiles, etc. Clients that dump all
this stuff on the user at once are exactly what I am complaining about.
They are doing a disservice to APRS if they dont give the user flexibiilty
to taylor and filter for the information he needs at the moment. BUT.
COnversly when ANYONE looks at AN ICON, then no matter what else he has on
the display at the time or nothing for that matter, I WANT HIM TO SEE THE
SAME ICON and the SAME ATTRIBUTES ABOUT THAT ICON as everyone else LOOKING
AT THAT ICON. Why is this so hard to understand...
>>... dont expect all clinets to display all attributes, buy of all attributes associated with ICONS is contributing
to the errosion of consistency, reliability and integrity across platforms
and THAT SITUATION is what is killing APRS. And if I don't keep pointing
this out, who should?
>>No, but clients that don't distinguish between moving and fixed ICONS,
>>Dont distinguish between current and OLD objects, dont show
>>dead-reckoning on moving objects, and dont show heading and speed will
>>continue to contirbute to our in-ability to communicate well using APRS
>>displays...
>>
>In your opinion. You certainly should share your opinion, but you also
>need to understand others have different opinions, and respect them.
>Each software author must be free to follow his vision and to meet the
>needs of his users!
True, as long as he displays the FUNDAMENTALS that every SENDER of APRS
information expects ALL RECEIPENTS on all clients to see! If client
software is inadequate and not displaying those attributes that are part
of APRS, then I think it needs to be brought to the attention of
the users...
Bob, WB4APR
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Xastir] How to show a storm front ?
From: "Tyler Allison" <tyler@allisonhouse.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:15:48 -0400 (GMT+4)
X-Message-Number: 65
>I know in APRS you can show an object
>
>What about a line ?
>
>eg how would I show a storm front.
>
>Maybe we can adapt some of the technology employed in netmeeting's white
>board
>
>start of line lat /long - end of line lat /long to draw ?
I think when I've seen the NWS feed on APRS they do a 'bounding box'. It
looks like they 'connected the dots' creating a multi-line rectangle of
sorts and then they drop an object inside/near the box with information
about it.
You can see an example of what Im talking about right now in the tri-state
area for Kentucky/Indiana/Ohio...there are two such boxes.
It doesnt show the speed, direction, etc stuff as far as I know.
-Tyler
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Xastir] How to show a storm front ?
From: "Curt Mills, WE7U" <hacker@tc.fluke.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:22:57 -0800 (PST)
X-Message-Number: 66
You can use APRS Area ObjHAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WHEN HE DOES FIGURE THAT OUT
>AND HE DOES POST THAT INFORMATION ON APRS AS A TOXIC MOVING CLOUD OBJECT,
>THAT HE HAS CONFIDENCE THAT ALL PEOPLE VIEWING IT WILL SEE WHAT HE
>INTENDED!!!
Wow. I'm not sure why you can't understand this, maybe you've never been in
a position to make life-or-death decisions, but then most people haven't,
and I still think most people could understand this scenario.
Here is a guy, probably a meterologist, who has to determine where a toxic
cloud is going to spread. One of the tools available to him is APRS, where
there is a nice array of weather stations in the vicinity of a spill,
giving him a more complete idea of the local weather pattern.
This guy has thousands or even millions of lives riding on his
predictions...evacuate an area that doesn't need it, and it will slow
evacuations in areas that do.
He doesn't give a rat's ass about whether the 40 hams on the APRS network
are going to get the message, he is worrying about millions! APRS is a tool
providing him input, not a way to get word out to 40 or 50 people on the
local network.
The point, once again, is not everyone is going to use APRS as you do, and
software authors need to have the freedom to follow their own vision, and
to support thier users as they see fit!
Steve K4HG
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