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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.11.03 20:23l 254 Lines 9871 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Bob...cutting to the chase on Frequency-of-TX & Network Personality
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:36:50 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 49
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Ev Tupis (W2EV) wrote:
>Bob, I've outlined the need for somehow embedding frequency of operation
>and network personality into an APRS frame. I would suggest that it be
>part of the PHGabcdefg/ construct as this construct works perfectly with
>the work I've undertaken with both the PropNET project and the HamIM
>project (the ?what? <smile>).
>
>Simple question, please....
>
>To what level do you support this proposal?
It may be a great concept, but there are SO MANY more important issues
that have to be fixed, I dont want to just keep adding bells and whistles
while we dont even have the fundamentals agreed to by many...
bob
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:31:46 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 50
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Steve Dimse wrote:
>>When I say the DISPLAY must be the consistent, I mean that EVERYONE should
>>be able to LOOK at an ICON on ANY "APRS" system and IMMEDAITLEY know:
>
>>1) CURRENT! (meaning, updated within the last net cycle time)
>>2) OLD! (meaning it is too old to be of interest)
>>3) MOVING! (meaning this thing may not be here next time)
>>4) Dead Reckoned (meaning how far it may have traveled since reported)
>>5) An OBJECT (versus a station)!
>>6) A station that is probably MESSAGE capable (that you can talk to)
>Bob.,.. Why does a guy concerned how the wind is going to spread a toxic
>cloud need to now whether something is an object, or any of the other
>data above?
See #1 and #2 and #3 and #4 and #5 above!
When I see a TOXIC cloud, I want to:
1&2) Know that it is a CURRENT OBJECT
3) Know What direction and how fast it is moving
4) SEE how far it has moved since it was last updated
5) See that it is an OBJECT posted and by WHOM instead of someone
who chose that ICON because he drives a smelly garbage truck
6) If he is so (#5) I would send him a message and suggest he use
a different ICON for now...
>And, if someone is concerned just with wind spreading a toxic cloud,
>they have enough to worry about, why should their senses be overloaded
>with data they don't need????
Overload? An ICON with a vector in a circle of color can convey ALL OF
THAT in an instant and without "overload". The "overload" you refer to
is client programs that have attempted to splatter all that textually
around the ICON, when a simple graphic will do it far better (I only
suggest color, do it whatever way but WITHOUT OVERLOAD!
>Now, granted, some people may have the need, but the fact that some
>don't means they ought to be free from being subjected to that
>meaningless (to them) data.
Then they just see a [CLOUD] icon with no clue what is happening?
I dare say, that is NOT APRS and not tactical real-time communications of
critical real-time information to the end users.
>Anyway, of the 6 things you show above, the clients I use grey out old
>vs current, use vectors for movement, and show DR station.
GREAT! THAT IS WHAT I AM ASKING FOR!!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Those clients then
score high on the scale of implementation. They have implemented many of
the attributes. Now we are beginning to communicate... I dont expect all
clinets to display all attributes, but to STRIVE to implement as many as
they can.
>Maybe the other two are critical to you, but not so important to others,
>otherwise those too would be shown. In any event, I certainly don't
>think those two things (or even all 6) are going to be responsible for
>the death of APRS as you claim.
No, but clients that don't distinguish between moving and fixed ICONS,
Dont distinguish between current and OLD objects, dont show dead-reckoning
on moving objects, and dont show heading and speed will continue to
contirbute in our inability to communicate well using APRS displays...
That is the point of my diatribe....
de WB4apr
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Subject: Re: Bob...cutting to the chase on Frequency-of-TX & NetworkPersonality
From: "Ev Tupis (W2EV)" <w2ev@arrl.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:53:10 -0500
X-Message-Number: 51
Bob Bruninga wrote:
>>To what level do you support this proposal?
>
>It may be a great concept, but there are SO MANY more important issues
>that have to be fixed, I dont want to just keep adding bells and whistles
>while we dont even have the fundamentals agreed to by many...
>
>bob
It took you all of three days to accept the need for the APRS Probe. It
seems that bells and whistles can be added if you decide they're needed.
Your reply is certainly a safe way to say that you don't support the
proposal. Without that support, there is no future for it (I'm a practical
guy).
After 10 years of trying to build on your concept and bring it to an
entirely new audience, it's time for me to direct my energies differently.
73,
Ev
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:02:14 -0500
X-Message-Number: 52
On 11/12/03 at 7:02 PM Ev Tupis (W2EV) <w2ev@arrl.net> sent:
>>People's needs are just not the same. I feel like I have failed to get this
>>point across very well, let me try an example requiring a real time tactical
>>system, a toxic spill.
>
>I was quite surprized to see this comment, Steve. It seems that you've taken
on
>the very role that you accuse Bob of taking. :)
I think you are not taking the time to read what is being written. In this
and the surrounding text, I am arguing that different people have different
needs, and each programmer should be free to follow his own vision and the
needs of his user. Do these words sound familiar, yet?????
>On the subject of Band-of-Origination and Network Personality flags, here's a
>perspective that you may have not considered: APRS is more than what happens on
>144.39 MHz. Once you realize that, you also must realize that APRS has grown
>beyond it's initial purpose. As such, new needs emerge. Not addressing them
>begs APRS to fracture into incompatible parts.
Once again, I am very explicitly acknowledging this, and have done so since
I first propsed the user defined format back in the days when I was in the
APRS WG. I am responsible for a mechanism that allows people to send
whatever data they choose on APRS.
It seems like you are just trying to pick a fight here...
Steve K4HG
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Subject: APRS Fundamental Symbology
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:16:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 53
Here are the fundamental APRS Graphical requirements that are needed in
tactical real-time displays so that end-users "see" the same information
content when looking at the "same area" of interest.
I have tried to keep this discussion general, because I have no interest
in focusing on individual client programs. They are all great and do
wonderful things and each has its niche. But this list is meant to show
what fundamental information is supposed to be on every APRS display
associated with each symbol or object so that all users viewing the same
information "see" the same thing.
I only put APRSdos on here, because it is the only one I feel qualified to
summarize. I put MAP.FINDU.COM on here just as an exmaple of a GREAT APRS
system that is invaluable and fundamental to the success of APRS, but
does not display many of these attributes::
m X P U
a P A O I
D p W L S C v
O F I U T K e
SYMBOLOGY S U N S R T w
--------------------- - - - - - - -
CALLSIGNS x x
SYMBOLS (ICONS) x
PRIMARY TABLE x
ALTERNATE TABLE x
OVERLAY CHARS x
OBJECT (others) x
OBJECT (mine) x
MOVING or NOT x
COURSE HEADING x
SPEED VECTOR x
PRECISION (ambiguity) x
DEAD RECKONED x
AGE IF MOVING x
OLDER than NET TIME x
MOVED (old and new x
position or trail)
MAP RANGE SCALE x
MAP DISTANCE LEGEND x x
Again, I do not post this as a means of trying to distinguish what progarm
is better than others, but simply as a means of self assessment to the end
users as to how much of what they SHOULD be seeing is actually appearing
on their MAPS.
Some progarms only display a call and an ICON. That keeps their users
quite BLIND as to what is going on...
This is not to prevent any user from turning off any of these atributes at
any time, but the default SHOULD BE ON for each session, if we expect to
see users across platforms to see the same thing when looking at the same
situation on the same range scale. They can also certainly FILTER by any
criteria they want, such as all mobiles, or all trucks, or all WX
stations. But still, for any station that matches the filter, and is
displayed, then the above list is the information that should be
presented..
This is the APRS GRAPHICAL DISPLAY STANDARD that the APRS-WG refused to
list in the APRS SPEC, and is why users across platforms have so much
trouble "seeing" the same thing under the same situation....
Notice, NOTHING here tells authors HOW to do it. It is only a list of all
the APRS ATTRIBUTES that are associated with each symbol (ICON) that are
supposed to be displayed.
de WB4APR, Bob
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