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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.11.03 20:27l 272 Lines 10991 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Nov 13, 12/14
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: UI-VIEW fixup / features wish list
From: "Andrew Rich \(VK4TEC\)" <vk4tec@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:37:52 +1000
X-Message-Number: 63
A lot of these are in XASTIR, alot just seem odd/ missing
01. When you disable the comm ie set to none you can still select baud
rates - odd
02. I completely disabled all igate functions yet I still have a blue square
around my station
03. I can not edit the list of aprs servers directly
04. Dowload a track from a GARMIN GPS - show on map
05. Show a mobile trail - draw a line from point to point
06. When you disable all comms - you can still ctrl-c and conv from terminal
window - why ?
07. Adjustable icon size would be good - on a fine map they look huge.
08. A weather station graph would be great - I currently use VB6 and / or
php and mysql to graph data
09. Download trail from findu.com - xastir has it , easy as anything - http
get function - I use perl at the moment.
10. Add power level control into thd7ag config script. - on high it blasts
my TV to bits.
11. I have no igate functions enabled at all yet the traffic moderater cells
(green etc) are at the top of the screen.
12. Adjustable font size in terminal window would be good. - debugging
Andrew VK4TEC
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:43:18 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 64
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Steve Dimse wrote:
>Bob you aren't listening, I said this is the guy figuring out where the
>toxic cloud is going to spread, not someone trying to figure out if a
>cloud placed on APRS by someone else is going to hit them. So once
>again, let me ask the question:
>
>Bob.,.. Why does a guy concerned how the wind is going to spread a toxic
>cloud need to now whether something is an object,...or any of the things
>you think are so critical?
Simple. BECAUSE HE MUST HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WHEN HE DOES FIGURE THAT OUT
AND HE DOES POST THAT INFORMATION ON APRS AS A TOXIC MOVING CLOUD OBJECT,
THAT HE HAS CONFIDENCE THAT ALL PEOPLE VIEWING IT WILL SEE WHAT HE
INTENDED!!!
When HE posts a moving TOXIC cloud object on APRS, HE ASSUMES:
1) That everyone else on the net will it see correctly
2) That others will know it is HIS object and not theirs
3) That others will SEE instantly that it is moving and in which direction
and how fast
4) That its velocity and direction will cause it to continue to MOVE in
that direction on their maps without having to clutter the channel with
continuous and frequent updates
5) That he only has to send an update when it changes course or speed
6) That in an hour or so, others who were not paying attention to the
sitution will know that it is an old report
7) That when he KILLS it, that others will see that it is killed
These are the kinds of attributes that are associated with symbology
(ICONS) on APRS maps and that we must assume that all client software
has implemented so that all users are sharing the same information...
>Again, this is a guy using APRS to figure out the local ground level
>winds and how they are going to affect the cloud. If you place every
>APRS object and user on the display, with a bunch of different colors,
>DR circles on mobiles he doesn't care about, and motion vectors
>criss-crossing the map, it will be harder to see the wind vectors he
>cares about. With enough clutter, entire weather stations will be hidden
>from his view.
Wow, you are mixing apples and oranges!!!! Every display should have the
ability to select layers of informaion. The WX guy wants to see just WX,
the dispatcher only needs to see the mobiles, etc. Clients that dump all
this stuff on the user at once are exactly what I am complaining about.
They are doing a disservice to APRS if they dont give the user flexibiilty
to taylor and filter for the information he needs at the moment. BUT.
COnversly when ANYONE looks at AN ICON, then no matter what else he has on
the display at the time or nothing for that matter, I WANT HIM TO SEE THE
SAME ICON and the SAME ATTRIBUTES ABOUT THAT ICON as everyone else LOOKING
AT THAT ICON. Why is this so hard to understand...
>>... dont expect all clinets to display all attributes, but to STRIVE to
>>implement as many as they can.
>
>Bob, at the start of this, you said no client scored high (or really,
>above 0).
I never intended to imply that. There are some excellent client programs
out there. I dont understand why people are so bent on missinterpreting
what I am saying... I am saying "some" clients dont display what they
should be displaying about ICONS... and we need to get these fixed...
>Regardless, my point is that each author needs to be free to
>choose the UI elements that fit his vision and meet the needs of his
>users. It is wrong to require that all APRS clients include the UI
>elements YOU think are important. If some of thesee are implemented, it
>is because the author wanted them for himself or to fill the needs of
>his users.
I have no issue with how the client programs implement or display the
information, I only am concerned that when they display an ICON, that
they should also display the attributes associated with it that were
INTENDED in the design of APRS to be displayes so that everyone sees
the same information when they are looking at the same thing...
I dont care how, and I INVITE the creativity of authors to find better
ways to get the info across *somehow*, so that as a standard for conveying
information amongst the users, they all have the potential to see the same
thing as the sender intended and *independent* of software client.
If we dont have that , then we dont have a reliable or consistent system.
>You should express your ideas, but when other authors don't implement
>them, you should not berate their efforts, accuse them of killing APRS,
>and/or demand they implement them.
I am not accusing anyone of killing APRS. I am saying the lack of
consistent display of all attributes associated with ICONS is contributing
to the errosion of consistency, reliability and integrity across platforms
and THAT SITUATION is what is killing APRS. And if I don't keep pointing
this out, who should?
>>No, but clients that don't distinguish between moving and fixed ICONS,
>>Dont distinguish between current and OLD objects, dont show
>>dead-reckoning on moving objects, and dont show heading and speed will
>>continue to contirbute to our in-ability to communicate well using APRS
>>displays...
>>
>In your opinion. You certainly should share your opinion, but you also
>need to understand others have different opinions, and respect them.
>Each software author must be free to follow his vision and to meet the
>needs of his users!
True, as long as he displays the FUNDAMENTALS that every SENDER of APRS
information expects ALL RECEIPENTS on all clients to see! If client
software is inadequate and not displaying those attributes that are part
of APRS, then I think it needs to be brought to the attention of
the users...
Bob, WB4APR
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Subject: Re: [Xastir] How to show a storm front ?
From: "Tyler Allison" <tyler@allisonhouse.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:15:48 -0400 (GMT+4)
X-Message-Number: 65
>I know in APRS you can show an object
>
>What about a line ?
>
>eg how would I show a storm front.
>
>Maybe we can adapt some of the technology employed in netmeeting's white
>board
>
>start of line lat /long - end of line lat /long to draw ?
I think when I've seen the NWS feed on APRS they do a 'bounding box'. It
looks like they 'connected the dots' creating a multi-line rectangle of
sorts and then they drop an object inside/near the box with information
about it.
You can see an example of what Im talking about right now in the tri-state
area for Kentucky/Indiana/Ohio...there are two such boxes.
It doesnt show the speed, direction, etc stuff as far as I know.
-Tyler
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Subject: Re: [Xastir] How to show a storm front ?
From: "Curt Mills, WE7U" <hacker@tc.fluke.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:22:57 -0800 (PST)
X-Message-Number: 66
You can use APRS Area Objects, or you can use the Multiline format
in a comment field to draw lines:
http://www.wxsvr.net/APRS_Multiline_Protocol.html
UI-View and Xastir will display either type.
--
Curt Mills, WE7U hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:30:40 -0500
X-Message-Number: 67
On 11/13/03 at 4:43 PM Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu> sent:
>On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Steve Dimse wrote:
>
>>Bob you aren't listening, I said this is the guy figuring out where the
>>toxic cloud is going to spread, not someone trying to figure out if a
>>cloud placed on APRS by someone else is going to hit them. So once
>>again, let me ask the question:
>>
>>Bob.,.. Why does a guy concerned how the wind is going to spread a toxic
>>cloud need to now whether something is an object,...or any of the things
>>you think are so critical?
>
>Simple. BECAUSE HE MUST HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT WHEN HE DOES FIGURE THAT OUT
>AND HE DOES POST THAT INFORMATION ON APRS AS A TOXIC MOVING CLOUD OBJECT,
>THAT HE HAS CONFIDENCE THAT ALL PEOPLE VIEWING IT WILL SEE WHAT HE
>INTENDED!!!
Wow. I'm not sure why you can't understand this, maybe you've never been in
a position to make life-or-death decisions, but then most people haven't,
and I still think most people could understand this scenario.
Here is a guy, probably a meterologist, who has to determine where a toxic
cloud is going to spread. One of the tools available to him is APRS, where
there is a nice array of weather stations in the vicinity of a spill,
giving him a more complete idea of the local weather pattern.
This guy has thousands or even millions of lives riding on his
predictions...evacuate an area that doesn't need it, and it will slow
evacuations in areas that do.
He doesn't give a rat's ass about whether the 40 hams on the APRS network
are going to get the message, he is worrying about millions! APRS is a tool
providing him input, not a way to get word out to 40 or 50 people on the
local network.
The point, once again, is not everyone is going to use APRS as you do, and
software authors need to have the freedom to follow their own vision, and
to support thier users as they see fit!
Steve K4HG
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