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ZL3AI > APRDIG 23.10.03 21:07l 262 Lines 10081 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Oct 21, 5/6
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:04:56 -0700
X-Message-Number: 34
From: "Bob Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Cc: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:05 PM
Subject: [aprssig] Re: run time a car battery....
>>However, if this is a car battery, intended to go BACK into service IN a
>>car, you can SERIOUSLY affect it's acceptable service life in a car by
>>doing this even once.
>
>Well, now that I am dragged into this, I have to disagree with the term
>"seriously" and "even once". Those are gross exaggerations...
>
>My understanding is that The only difference between a deep cycle (boat
>store kind) and regular car battery is the provision for a courser grain
>structure on the plates and a larger area at the bottom of the cell for
>the junk to collect as the plates age before they rise to the level of
>being a problem (a short)...
>
>Neither of these will be affected "seriously" even after several times of
>doing it...
Bob,
Just some FYI...I do a lot of work with batteries!
Car batteries are designed with thinner (.04 inch or 1.02 mm) and more
porous plates. They normally have more plates and separators for greater
surface area to produce the initial high amps required to start an engine
and they normally do not have much of an area for plate crud that falls to
the bottom of a battery. They are usually engineered for up to 5,000
shallow (to 5%) discharges. That is about four engine starts per day for
the average car battery. Cars will usually start within five seconds and
typically consume 1%-3% of the battery's capacity. It is written in many
places that car batteries should not be discharged below 90%
state-of-charge. They normally use sponge or expand grids rather than
solid lead grids. Marine Starting batteries are designed for prolonged
discharges at lower amperage that typically consumes between 20% and 50% of
the battery's capacity. Deep Cycle batteries are normally discharged
between 20% and 80% (Depending on application) and have much thicker (up to
.25 inch or 6.35 mm) plates, more lead, and weight more than Car batteries
the same size and a larger crud collection area. They will typically out
last car batteries in a deep cycle application. I suppose the keywords are
"deep cycle".
Jim, WA6OFT
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Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:16:15 -0700
X-Message-Number: 35
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sadowski, Allan" <allan.sadowski@ncshp.org>
To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: [aprssig] Re: run time a car battery....
This begs the question... and I've seen something here in the past on this
topic...
But anyone here on the SIG have a good URL that references hooking up a
second battery in parallel for the specific purpose for radio use.... so
that the CAR alternator charges the second battery... but it is the only
battery that gets drawn from for the radio/gps/tnc/PC....
TNX
ALOHA
AH6LS
Allan, In the last two SAr Comm units I've built, I've just used a good
quality battery isolator. This allows the Comm battery to be charged while
running down the road. and when parked, we normally are plugged into a
120vac, where ever we can get it....gen, building, etc.
Jim, WA6OFT
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Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Mike Yetsko" <myetsko@insydesw.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:01:36 -0400
X-Message-Number: 36
>This begs the question... and I've seen something here in the past on
this
>topic...
>
>But anyone here on the SIG have a good URL that references hooking up a
>second battery in parallel for the specific purpose for radio use.... so
>that the CAR alternator charges the second battery... but it is the only
>battery that gets drawn from for the radio/gps/tnc/PC....
>
>TNX
>
>ALOHA
>AH6LS
This kind of application is fairly common in the 'camper' and RV crowd.
While not 'radio' oriented the way we are, a lot of those guys use TVs
and stereos and...
You might check around some of those sites for info.
Mike
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Subject: Re: Smart DIgis and the new Paradigm
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:16:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 37
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Tim Cunningham wrote:
>The other issue I can see is the system loses any redundancy with a
>pre-emptive digipeater changing the path to a local IGate. What happens
>when the local IGate goes down?
You missed my caveat that no SMART DIGI should ever change a path to an
IGatge, unless it KNOWS that the IGate is working and on line in real
time. That is what makes it a smart digi...
>It requires manual intervention and relies on the human element. So,
>what is really needed is a system that detects a dead IGate and tries to
>route the traffic to the next available IGate. It is wishful thinking at
>the moment. The best thing that comes to mind was the old FlexNet
>implementation with dynamic routing capabilities in the packet world
>when a node was dead.
Yes, that is something like I had in mind. IGate software needs a flag
in their position report that alerts DIGIS that they are actively on
line. Just the ICON symbol is not enough.
My feeling is that the presence of a 3rd party IGate forwarded local
packet is such a flag to indicate ACTIVE use...
Bob
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Subject: Re: APRS Aliases, their past usage and "Smart Digipeating"
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:24:47 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 38
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Ev Tupis (W2EV) wrote:
>APRS is based on a series of affirmative commands. Examples:
>
>RELAY,WIDE,WIDE = digipeat me three times, radially
>RELAY,GATE,GATE,WIDE2-2 = digipeat me once on VHF, GATE me to HF, GATE me back
> to VHF, digipeat me twice - radially from my VHF
> entry point.
Number 2 above is a very NON ACCEPTIBLE packet in APRS. In fact,
APRSdos will chastize you severely for doing that path. Anyone
contemplating using APRS on HF, MUST read the groundrules in HF.txt!
>Fast forward again to the discussion of the introduction of "smart
>digipeaters". This is a term that describes [devices] that change the
>originators intended UNPROTO to something else -- without the permission
>of the originating station.
>
>I would propose that IF this is actually the philosophy that the APRS
>fathers wish to pursue, then it is incumbant to include an "RFONLY-like"
>alias (one that allows the originator to regain control of their TX
>frame) that will cause such "smart devices" to allow a frame to
>propagate as intended without UNPROTO modification.
I think the point has been made that my idea to auto-configure on relay
has been shot down. I am back to the IGATE flag the way it always was...
But I do now include the other one NOAUTO for assuring that no digi
anywhere will modify the path...
Bob
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Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Wes Johnston <wes@johnston.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:25:09 -0400
X-Message-Number: 39
How about a relay to connect the gel cell to the car's electical system
after the car is running.... and using a load such as a light bulb as a
current limiter between the battery and the relay feeding it - either that
or a ceramic reisistor.... something to prevent too much charge
current. Brighter the light, the more charge current is going into your
gel cel. I used to use this trick as a speaker protect circuit but will it
work on battery charging?
Wes
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Subject: Re: D7 on alkaline Batteries
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:27:50 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 40
The D7 draws about 100 ma just on receive with both bands running and the
TNC on. But there is a lot going on... from memory, I think:
Band A is about 35 mA?
TNC is about 15 mA?
Band B is about 50 mA?
Thus, if you are monitoring for APRS, then turn off band B. If you are
monitoring just for voice, turn off Band A and the TNC. If you are
monitoring for both, get NICADS and a spare pack...
Bob
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Subject: Re: Smart DIgis and the new Paradigm
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:30:04 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 41
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Ev Tupis (W2EV) wrote:
>>Yep, but probably we will just have to put this one in the "user education
>>bin". BUT we should include all SYSOPS to have their smart digis look for
>>the "IGATE" flag and act accordingly. This will help!
>
>Just as soon as I took one tack, the spin changed on the tread. :)
>This changes the personality of the suggested "New Paradigm" quite a
>bit. So, what does "act accordingly" mean if someone launches a frame
>with this unproto: RELAY,WIDEn-N,IGATE
That is a perfectly valid path under the new paradigm. It means that any
smart digi that digipeats the packet may truncate the path and replace it
with that DIGI's known best path to the nearest active digi.
de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob
PCsat WEB page http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/pcsat.html
ISS-APRS FAQ: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/iss-faq.html
CUBESAT Designs http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/cubesat.html
APRS LIVE pages http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs.html
APRS SATELLITES http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/astars.html
MIM/Mic-E/Mic-Lite http://ssdl.stanford.edu/mims/
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