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ZL3AI > APRDIG 17.09.03 21:27l 243 Lines 9668 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 15, 8/10
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Sent: 030917/1424Z @:ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC #:8566 [Chch-NZ] FBB7.00i $:1931-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:39:48 -0500
X-Message-Number: 53
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Bruninga [mailto:bruninga@usna.edu]
>Posted At: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:48 PM
>Subject: [aprssig] Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone
>contact this guy?
>
>Well, then they better. If users are not adjusting their paths for
>optimum during an emergency, then they are not practicing
>preparedness.
>Then is when you want people to only direct their info where
>it needs to
>be, not all over the place.
Bob, a 30 mile radius is "not all over the place". And, in fact, if
they are muddling with their path settings during an emergency then they
are taking probably taking valuable time away from their emergency
activities.
>>In this area, that means no more than 2 hops.
>
>Ah, I see, You are declaring that in an emergency, that
>there cannot be
>any traffic for outside your 2 hop limit? Well, that seems
>short sighted
>and exactly opposed to the basis for using APRS to get the
>data to where
>it needs to go...
As I indicated before, APRS is not well suited for communications beyond
2 hops in a high activity area so any attempt to rely on it for that is
poor planning at best, futile in most circumstances. We have a number
of other communications methods available to us that are far superior to
single-frequency UI AX.25 for medium to long range distances.
>>They then fall back to trying either WIDE or RELAY
>
>And that is exactly why they shouldnt be GUESSING. They
This isn't guessing. This is using some of the very powerful tools that
are part of APRS.
>I have been told repeatedly that it takes 3 hops to go 90
>miles or less in
>Texas. Is DFW any better?
Who told you that? Take a look at the digi spacing on any map of Texas.
WIDE2-2 in north Dallas is consistently heard in Waco and in Oklahoma,
and in east Texas, and west of Ft. Worth. Hmm. 100+ mile RADIUS with
only 2 WIDE hops? Times change, Bob.
>>single frequency AX.25. With an unconnected protocol, it
>is even worse.
>
>No, it is even better. Because you dont have the HOP-SQUARED problem
>with ACKS. One way packets have a much better chance...
Not when multiple digis are trying to repeat the same packet. And the
only data that might be of true value 2 or more hops away during an
emergency is messaging, which is markedly worse because of the broadcast
acking. Nets for emergency operations are LOCAL (within 30 miles or
within 1 digi hop). You might like to know what is going on in Dallas
when you are in Oklahoma City, but during an emergency that doesn't and
shouldn't factor in. APRS is used tactically on a local level and other
communication modes are used to bridge to out-of-area operations.
>>I know the local digi is up if I am getting digipeated. I don't need to
>>see the digi beacon.
>
>Really? If someone is using W2-2 then the packets arrive as
>planning if you want everyone to be always pinging to see what is out
>there...
Bob, I don't have to ping. My beacon tells me if I am getting
digipeated for LOCAL operations.
>>In an emergency, these things are exactly what won't happen. There are
>>far too many other things going on for a net control operator, a mobile
>>operator, or other support operator to be messing with paths. It will
>>be very obvious if there are holes in coverage.
>
>I find that an amazing statement. How? How long to you stare
Then I would say you are going to have fun with emergency communications
when Isabel comes ashore if it stays on its predicted path. I don't
have to "stare" at a map to recognize that where normally there is
coverage, there isn't now. "APRS is based on knowing who is on the air"
and I will add " and recognizing who is no longer being seen". A digi 3
hops away doesn't do any good for local emergency operations. And, at
least in this area, that is all APRS is being considered for use as. In
this area, we recognize that beyond local operations, we have many other
modes of communications which are much better suited for medium to long
distance communications. And the last thing we want is someone in Ft.
Worth trying to manage tactical operations in Dallas (or vice versa).
>then 2-2, ok. But anything less, and you will have a blind network which
>is practically useless when the lights go out...
As shown above, that is a very inaccurate statement. What will be
useless is trying to use APRS as a long range communications mechanism
which we don't want to do anyway.
>What?!, we aren't talking about your local digi! You were arguing agaist
>aonce-every-3-hour W3-3 from other digis. How is your little D7 gonna
>tell you how much of the surrounding DIGI infrastructure is still in
>place???
I am saying that anything other than your local digi(s) DOESN'T matter
in an emergency!
>You still arent seeing the point. You have to know what is
No Bob, you aren't seeing the point. During an emergency, our operators
are being taught to rely on RELAY,WIDE for mobile/portable operations
and DIGICALL,WIDE for fixed station operations. Why? Because those
paths will cover ANY emergency in our area. If a digi in the area is
down, then we will set up a portable digi with the RELAY or WIDE alias
to cover the affected area. Having anything else in the path is
counterproductive to our tactical operations. Based on this, why would
a digi need to beacon every 10 minutes and why would someone in Austin
need to see our WIDE digi? If the emergency is in Austin, we don't want
to be trying to use APRS to communicate with them. They have their own
tactical net to run without our interference. The same is true for say
Dallas and Plano, TX (neighboring cities but completely different
tactical nets).
As you have said in the past, KISS. And that is just what we do in our
emergency planning. APRS is a great tactical tool. We have no
illusions about trying to use it for anything else. Nor do we promote
operating practices that could be counterproductive to that use.
73,
Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete@ae5pl.net
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:48:57 -0500
X-Message-Number: 54
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Earle [mailto:wa2mct@mearle.com]
>Posted At: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:29 PM
>Subject: [aprssig] Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone
>contact this guy?
>
>I think your.. strong statements on both sides are because, Bob, you are
>preaching the ideal, and Pete is preaching APRS as his group has decided to
>use it. The two are not necessarily equal.
Very true, they are not the same.
As for the rest of your post (too much to try and quote ;-), I think you
said it very well. I don't know how things are set up in Houston. Even
though we have very good WIDEn-n coverage in the DFW area, we still
recommend RELAY,WIDE or RELAY,WIDE2-2 for mobiles to get them out of
some holes were RELAY digis fill in. And as to the digis that you have
set up, THANKS! Just like cellular, if we can start giving broad
coverage, people will use it. Then, as activity increases we can
hopefully reduce the coverage areas of the "cells". Good job Mark.
73,
Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete@ae5pl.net
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Subject: wxnow.txt
From: "Earl S. Garber" <n3eg@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:18:29
X-Message-Number: 55
I'm trying to get someone info on the "wxnow.txt" file so they could
possibly incorporate it into their weather software to make it
APRS-friendly. Any idea where to find the specifications for it?
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Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Versign greed to screw up DNS
From: Neil Johnson <njohnsn@njohnsn.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:15:07 -0500
X-Message-Number: 56
I know this is off-topic but it is just too incredible to believe:
Just a few hours ago Versign modified the Internet's root DNS servers to
respond to ANY DNS lookup that doesn't resolve in a real hostname to return
the IP address of one their servers where they claim to have a search
engine.
For example, if you access http://www.thisisjunk55666.com , you will get a
Verisign page, not a "Host can not be found error".
This means that many anti-spam checks will fail among other issues.
They will also intercept mail to mistyped email hosts (They claim to reject
the mail, but not after having collected the From and To address).
This really bites.
--
Neil Johnson
http://www.njohnsn.com
PGP key available on request.
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Subject: Re: APRS contact list - email and web page directory
From: "Sean \\The RIMBoy\\" <sean@rimboy.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:08:42 -0500 (CDT)
X-Message-Number: 57
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Jon Anhold wrote:
>I agree. It's a nice idea, but it would force me to remove my already
>over-spammed email address from my beacons.
As if the spammers are not finding their way onto findu?
QRZ listing is by far the worst in terms of being picked up by spammers.
Sean...
--
Believing I had supernatural powers, I slammed into a brick wall.
--Paul Simon
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
KG4NRC http://www.rimboy.com Your source for the crap you know you need.
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