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ZL3AI > APRDIG 31.08.03 10:25l 248 Lines 10287 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Aug 27, 6/7
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: RE: New fourth.aprs.net
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:59:36 -0400
X-Message-Number: 25
On 8/27/03 at 3:28 PM AE5PL Lists <HamLists@ametx.com> sent:
>
>>the others, so no packets are lost. This issue is not about
>>what happens if one
>>server goes down, but about preventing the APRS IS from being
>>split into parts
>>which are not able to communicate with each other.
>
>Agreed. And the tiered system accomplishes that.
How? The tiered system creates many separate segments, all connected by
unmonitored connections. If something happens to the validated connection a
tier 2 server makes to the core, who sees an anomaly? The users connected
to tier 2 will see a decrease in traffic, the amount depending on the
proportion of users connected to the core and the second tier. Maybe people
would notice, maybe not. A multi-tiered connection creates many such
dependencies, and I maintain the best system is one with automated
monitoring of the connections.
Please, I asked a couple messages ago, and I'll ask again. Lay out an
example of an APRS IS configuration and failure where a tier 2, 3, 4...n
hub "saves the day", and keeps even one packet being seen throughout the
system.
>Ah, but if the link between two servers is down, then it can be safely
>assumed that all connections to one of those servers are also down (this
>isn't magic).
Haw can you assume this? At least a dozen times I've had my route to
www1.findu.com blocked by a router failure, but still been able to reach
www2.findu.com, and from there ssh to www1, finding that all is fine with
the primary server, it is continuing to handle a normal load of incoming
requests. No doubt some other people would be blocked, but the fact is that
it is quite possible for the link between two hubs to be down without
affecting most of the users on either hub.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: Pleasantville (WAS: Path Police Idea)
From: Jim Duncan <jdbandman@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:03:58 -0500
X-Message-Number: 26
After looking at your website, Sean, I'm not EVEN going to dignify you
with a response. I don't normally address issues brought up by someone
with so little respect for themselves than to post photos of themselves
standing on the toilet.
--
73 de Jim, KU0G
Chairman/Coordinator
Kansas City APRS Working Group, W0APR
First Alert Storm Team KMBC-TV9
Mailto:ku0g@kcaprs.org
Webpage: http://www.kcaprs.org
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Subject: RE: New fourth.aprs.net
From: "Dick Stanich" <dick@kb7zva.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:13:29
X-Message-Number: 27
On 08/27/03, "Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>" wrote:
>He chose not to communicate to me that he had blocked findU's IP, which seems
to>me a very un-amateur behavior. Yes, we have serious disagreements, but I
would>never block his data from or access to findU or any other assest I
control. Even
>now I do not conssider that an option. Calling him on it in public seems quite
>appropriate to me.
>
>Steve K4HG
Ok I'm here <g>. Has nothing to do with you. I am in the process of
changing ISP's and there are changes taking place. I do read this list, and
generally respond if anything is worth responding to. Sorry if you feel we
have had 'serious disagreements'... That's your point of view and another
opinion.
Port 10152 basically doesn't exist at this time. The whole system may be
down soon. Could be down 3-4 days maybe longer. Level 2/Tier 2 servers
provide excellent connectivity to more than half of the APRS users on the
internet. That's not an opinion just simple fact.
The 'next generation' will be the key to the APRS-IS, and the tiering
concept will not go away.
Last week I monitored all the core servers in real time. What I found was a
15-30 second data delay from one of the core servers compared to the other
3. Usually, there is only a 1-2 second delay. The sysop was contacted and
he re-booted the system and everything went back to normal. It wasn't a big
deal and it didn't make the lists :) It was just taken care of.
My complete focus is developing Tier 2. These servers are monitored. We
have a coordinator and our own list, and I own the aprs2.net domain. We
have leadership and everyone is on the same page. We communicate and
resolve issues quickly. I think the leadership role was questioned by you
before. Let's put that to rest.
This is not a war between the core vs. Tier 2. It is the blending of both.
APRSWest has been operating as a Tier 2 server for over 2 years. It's main
purpose was designed to provide a means for the CWOP's and WX stations to
send data smoothly into the APRS-IS. 7 authors have developed programs to
allow users to send their data to my server. I helped each author along the
way get on the same page. I'm sure we have all heard of WX-Display. It was
decided that port 23 (telnet) would be used and the port wouldn't clobber
users with data, since they only needed to send data to a server. Port 23
at Tier 2 only can receive data from clients. One of our biggest clients is
Dale's WXSVR. Not to mention over 70,000 CW/WX logins per day at APRSWest.
I didn't expect a blessing from you on any of this. Merely followed my own
instincts and a bunch of help from many nameless people :) As you have
stated many times, your opinion was, 'there is no real leadership' at the
core or elsewhere. You didn't want to have anything to do with the APRS-IS
or would support APRServer. So we just moved forward and that's not a
crime. Now you want to pull the strings and tell us what's all wrong. The
bright side is that despite all the negative we hear... the APRS-IS works
and it's getting better.
There are many on this list that share the same vision. This is our hobby
and it's fun... Move on!
Dick, KB7ZVA
APRSWest
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pleasantville (WAS: Path Police Idea)
From: "Sean \\The RIMBoy\\" <sean@rimboy.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:20:01 -0500 (CDT)
X-Message-Number: 28
This has no business on this list. I was polite. I asked you to propose
a better suggestion, and you come back with this.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Jim Duncan wrote:
>After looking at your website, Sean, I'm not EVEN going to dignify you
>with a response. I don't normally address issues brought up by someone
>with so little respect for themselves than to post photos of themselves
>standing on the toilet.
Assuming makes an ass out of you and you. That's not a picture of me.
While your at it, help yourself to a steaming cup of this:
http://web.mit.edu/zacheiss/www/official_motto.jpg
Next time email me in private if *you* have a problem with *my* personal
site.
Sean...
--
Believing I had supernatural powers, I slammed into a brick wall.
--Paul Simon
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
KG4NRC http://www.rimboy.com Your source for the crap you know you need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: HT for APRS on sailboats
From: "Joe Della Barba" <joe@dellabarba.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:06:20 -0400
X-Message-Number: 29
My Icom 2GAT does well on my boat.
73
Joe N3HGB-5 (SV Coquina)
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Subject: Pleasantville, revisited...
From: Jim Duncan <jdbandman@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:13:13 -0500
X-Message-Number: 30
Having had another 'highly respectful' message from Sean, let me address
the INTELLIGENT life which abounds here...
Pure and simple, the instituting of a "path police" is absolutely the
wrong thing to do with APRS. We have been (at least so I thought) a
community different from the stereotypical ham community.
We have been the hottest thing in ham radio in 20 years and have
certainly generated a great deal of renewed enthusiasm for ham radio.
In my own case, APRS rekindled my waning interest in the hobby 10 years
ago. It was a breath of fresh air into the stagnant world of packet BBS
and keyboarding. Finally, something to get EXCITED about!
We have endured a lot of problems and have, for the most part, stuck
together as a community to defend ourselves and have grown into a very
strong, vocal, and RECOGNIZED force in amateur radio. Just look at the
progress with our Field Day involvement over the past three years....
In my opinion, the worst possible thing we can do is to start jumping on
uninformed newbies when they don't play by the implicit rules. I would
also point out that the rules were instituted by Bob Bruninga many years
ago. We have generally accepted those as our means of guidance however
it is possible that in SOME locations that a longer path MAY be a
necessity in order to get to the internet backbone. Rules most
generally have exceptions.
In a busy environment, well-populated by major digipeaters and a
plethora of home stations, a long path is absolutely the worst thing for
a local network. In a remote, rural area with little APRS
infrastructure it may just be the minimum essential to conduct reliable
and/or efficient communications.
Will we ever be able to reach everyone? It's hard to say. The surest
way to create friction, however, is to impose rules on a blanket basis
when the situation calls for other than the norm.
Further, an initial contact with someone will be much better received
when it is personal and informal. The receipt of an automated email or
some such message will generally result in a negative response or, worse
yet, a DELIBERATE or malicious response.
There ARE other means for dealing with obstinance which have a lot more
teeth available for extreme cases.
We don't need a "big brother" here, folks. Let's keep it human and
personal.
(NOTE: Don't bother to send a duplicate response to my personal
email... I'm reading it here already....)
--
73 de Jim, KU0G
Chairman/Coordinator
Kansas City APRS Working Group, W0APR
First Alert Storm Team KMBC-TV9
Mailto:ku0g@kcaprs.org
Webpage: http://www.kcaprs.org
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