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ZL3AI > APRDIG 23.08.03 10:02l 250 Lines 9452 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: "Dick Stanich" <dick@kb7zva.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 7:30:31
X-Message-Number: 7
>According to the South Dakota State Highway Patrol, this is the device they
>use to extract data from automobile black boxes.
Mark,
In reading this thread, has anyone discussed why the 'black box' was in a
'95 Cad to start with? Was it installed by law enforcement? :)
Dick, KB7ZVA
APRSWest
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Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:06:42 -0400
X-Message-Number: 8
On 8/20/03 at 7:30 AM Dick Stanich <dick@kb7zva.com> sent:
>In reading this thread, has anyone discussed why the 'black box' was in a
>'95 Cad to start with? Was it installed by law enforcement? :)
The black box is part of the airbag system, if you have an airbag, you have
a black box, though recent models store more parameters than earlier ones.
Original purpose was to provide understanding of forces involved in
airbag-deployed accidents, to help tune the triggering parameters of future
models. When the airpab deploys, a few sevonds of data is stored, that is
all. If the airbag does not deploy, then no data is saved...it is a
one-time use only.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: RE: SoCal APRS inundated by accidental ?IGATE? query - is this
supposed to happen?
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:07:59 -0500
X-Message-Number: 9
This problem was identified over a year ago and is the result of two
things. First, older versions of aprsD improperly respond to the
?IGATE? generic query with a message (gated) instead of the station
capabilities packet (not gated) defined in the spec. That is why you
only saw messages from older aprsD software.
The second problem was also determined last year that IGates should not
gate generic queries in either direction. To keep generic queries
"local", they should not be gated from one medium to another. This has
been implemented in some software, but not all. And, because this was
only determined last year, there is still a lot of older software
running out there. Note that this only applies to generic queries (data
type ?), not directed queries (part of a message).
Hope this helps clear things up.
73,
Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete@ae5pl.net
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Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: Phil Reed <preed@dnaco.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:18:36 -0400
X-Message-Number: 10
At 03:30 AM 08/20/2003, Dick Stanich wrote:
>>According to the South Dakota State Highway Patrol, this is the device they
>>use to extract data from automobile black boxes.
>
>Mark,
>
>In reading this thread, has anyone discussed why the 'black box' was in a
>'95 Cad to start with? Was it installed by law enforcement? :)
It's the computer that triggers the airbags during a collision. The data
recording feature was added by designers to gain data on the dynamics of
collisions, ostensively to improve safety features.
--
...phil / w8sca
"For a list of all the ways technology has failed
to improve the quality of life, press 3."
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Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: "Mike Yetsko" <myetsko@insydesw.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:23:41 -0400
X-Message-Number: 11
While all airbags have 'some' capability, the 'black box' as it came to be
known is really a development of OBD2. OBD2 set the standard and is now
mandated to be in cars. While the blackbox isn't, with OBD2 the tools and
the interface are now pretty much available to put the equivalent of a
black box in cars easily and get the info back out. And now with the 'smart
airbags', the black box is a natural development.
A friend of mine told me an interesting tidbit... Seems some automotive
engineer groups have been doing this on a limited basis for years. Sort of
like Chrysler did with the first airbags in the mid 80's. One interesting
thing was they found that roughly 60% of the incidents attributed to driver
error were at least contributory from mechanical issues or outright
failures.
Makes you wonder what the 'black box' records, and what it DOESN'T
if you get faced with a legal situation. Remember, the black box as it is
called is NOT there to record data to reconstruct an accident. It's NOT
like an aircraft black box at all. It's geared towards the manufacturers
understanding of airbag systems and how to make them safer and more
reliable in the future. Data collected in this way could be very skewed
if it was considered to be 'whole data' in reconstructing the accident
itself.
Mike
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Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:51:10 -0500
X-Message-Number: 12
At 02:30 AM 8/20/2003, Dick Stanich wrote:
>Mark,
>
>In reading this thread, has anyone discussed why the 'black box' was in a
>'95 Cad to start with? Was it installed by law enforcement? :)
GM started installing black boxes in 1994, I believe. It's part of the air
bag monitoring system. I believe they read just a few parameters - speed,
brakes, seatbelt status, airbag status.
73,
Mark
KC7BXS
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Subject: Re: Big brother in everyday life, and it's us!
From: Jim Duncan <jdbandman@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:55:04 -0500
X-Message-Number: 13
Black boxes were on the news locally about 10 days ago. They record only
the last 2 minutes before an impact. The data is dumped whenever you shut
off the car unless the boxes senses some sort of violent physical event
(collision, rolling over, etc.).
Before everyone goes off half-cocked, I suggest we all do a little more
research on the topic (which is REALLY not APRS-related, is it?) to
determine the facts of the system.
--
73 de Jim, KU0G
Chairman/Coordinator
Kansas City APRS Working Group, W0APR
First Alert Storm Team KMBC-TV9
Mailto:ku0g@kcaprs.org
Webpage: http://www.kcaprs.org
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Subject: Re: Big brother in everyday life, and it's us!
From: Mark Cheavens <mcheavens@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:14:13 -0500
X-Message-Number: 14
This email is in response to many of the posts and NOT just Henk's.
Let me give you all some knowledge and some background.
The "Black Box" in question is the air bag module.
EVERY car that has had an air bag since the late 80's has had a controller
module that stores data when the bag deploys.
That being said, The information stored is NOT USUALLY actual data, but
rather COMPUTED values extrapolated from MINIMAL inputs!
Example: Our current modules have NO mechanical sensors or outside inputs!
Crash information/deployment decisions are instead based upon a single
piezo element in the module. The logic then determines whether a collision
is occurring. WHEN an airbag deployment occurs this data is stored in
memory. You can then TRY to extrapolate from the intensity and duration of
the event how fast someone was traveling and the forces involved. NOT
anywhere near 100% reliable!!!!!!! I could give you all kinds of scenarios
that can/do create bogus data!
For the hall of shame each state in the US has different speed limits so
that by itself would not work. You also have airplanes in the US using APRS
that show some very high speeds.
As for OBD-II that has NOTHING to do with "black boxes". Nothing in the
OBD-II spec records information EXCEPT the conditions that where occurring
WHEN/IF the MIL (check engine light) comes on.
As for the boxes used in most of our products.......They are produced in
Germany, the data is proprietary, the data can only be retrieved by the
vendor IN Germany. This was done for legal purposes.
Mark Cheavens
KC5EVE
Field Service Engineer
Mazda North American Operations
PS please lets NOT do a sort by speed function in FindU or anywhere else!
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Subject: Re: Black Box retrieval tool (Was: Big Brother)
From: Phil Reed <preed@dnaco.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:29:34 -0400
X-Message-Number: 15
At 09:23 AM 08/20/2003, Mike Yetsko wrote:
>Makes you wonder what the 'black box' records, and what it DOESN'T
>if you get faced with a legal situation. Remember, the black box as it is
>called is NOT there to record data to reconstruct an accident. It's NOT
>like an aircraft black box at all. It's geared towards the manufacturers
>understanding of airbag systems and how to make them safer and more
>reliable in the future. Data collected in this way could be very skewed
>if it was considered to be 'whole data' in reconstructing the accident
>itself.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/edr/index.asp
--
...phil / w8sca
"For a list of all the ways technology has failed
to improve the quality of life, press 3."
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