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ZL3AI > APRDIG 09.03.03 09:36l 263 Lines 9243 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:25:53 +0100
X-Message-Number: 7
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
>At 10:17 PM 3/3/2003, Ramon F. Kolb wrote:
>
>>I'm not sure about your linksys, but the routers I've used (Palmrouter
>>and Netgear) provide firmware upgrades for free via the internet.
>
>The firmware upgrades are free, but in Linksys' case it is due to FLAWS in
>their system.
Well, there are plenty of flaws in these Kenwood models and still they are
only fixed for a fee. In fact in Europe they cannot be fixed at all.
I'm pritty sure the problem with these Garmins is that they output a higher
precision (4 decimal digits instead of 3) in the NMEA string as in the past.
The older kenwoods could not handle this. This is a genuine flaw as the
NMEA spec does not prescribe any precision for the position data. So it
is a flaw by Kenwood, they do not adhere to the NMEA specification as
claimed.
But anyway Kenwood is not "refefining Warranty", it has been their business
practice for years now, nothing new.
My suggestion is to close this thread and stop beating the dead horse, its
useless and will not change Kenwoods policy.
For getting your Garmin to work your best bet is to make some inteface
inbetween that decreases the position report precision (GPRMC and GPGGA
strings). I read about somebody using a basic-stamp to do this. That will be
cheaper than the upgrade, although it gives you an extra box to take with
you. But when you build it into your car then that should not be a problem.
What also works for some is to downgrade the Garmin to an older firmware
version. For example the basic yellow eTrex US version with firmware
version 2.0.5 (or 2.0.4, not sure) ouputs positions with 3 decimal digits,
where newer versions have 4 decimal digits which causes the problems
with the Kenwoods.
I hope this helps. Kind regards,
Henk.
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Subject: Re: 222-MHz Business Band Retunes?
From: "Richard Garcia" <k4gps@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:06:00 -0500
X-Message-Number: 8
Have you seen the prices on these radios ?? Probably at or above the cost of
a nice HF rig.
Rich
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:23:17 -0500
X-Message-Number: 9
Garmin provides free firmware upgrades to improve their GPS'es. So do many
other companies that value their customers and don't desire to put it to them
every time they can.
Stop making excuses for what is obvious to everyone on the list...
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 03/04/2003
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:28:00 -0500
X-Message-Number: 10
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:25:53 +0100, henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl wrote:
>I'm pritty sure the problem with these Garmins is that they output a higher
>precision (4 decimal digits instead of 3) in the NMEA string as in the past.
>The older kenwoods could not handle this. This is a genuine flaw as the
>NMEA spec does not prescribe any precision for the position data. So it
>is a flaw by Kenwood, they do not adhere to the NMEA specification as
>claimed.
100% correct Henk. I've seen this "bug" with other manufacturers before. They
are parsing the NMEA spec based on a char count, when they should be parsing
it based on positions of comma's.
>My suggestion is to close this thread and stop beating the dead horse, its
>useless and will not change Kenwoods policy.
It is not useless, it saved me from purchasing one of their radio's in the
past and pointing their flaws out in public allows the amateur radio public
to be better informed in their buying decisions.
-Jeff
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:00:44 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 11
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jeff King wrote:
>Garmin provides free firmware upgrades to improve their GPS'es. So do many
>other companies that value their customers and don't desire to put it to them
>every time they can.
>
>Stop making excuses for what is obvious to everyone on the list...
Those GPS's were developed using recent FLASH technology in the last few
years. The D700 and D7 were developed in the mid 90's before FLASH was
mainstream AND (big and) and the FCC would not type-accept a radio that
could be field programmed.
Thus it has to go back to the shop, and partially disassembled, connected
to a programmer, and then it takes 20 minutes to reburn the PROM, then
reassemble... At current labor rates, you'd go broke if you didnt charge
for that process...
And as for me, I'd like to see the only manufacturer of APRS radios stay
in business!
Bob
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: David VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:01:27 -0500
X-Message-Number: 12
At 11:23 AM 3/4/2003 -0500, Jeff King wrote:
>Garmin provides free firmware upgrades to improve their GPS'es.
www.mobilecommand.net
Another one that does free firmware upgrades.
(As soon as I finish writing the code, that is :)
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Subject: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:03:31 -0500
X-Message-Number: 13
>>I agree with you, upgrades that require HARDWARE changes are most of the
>>time not for free. However, buggy firmware upgrades should be free IMHO,
>>and preferably something you can do at home.
>
>I assume that the FCC has some requirements on modern transceivers about
>what you can and can not flash on the user end.
This has been stated in the past by others as fact. I refer everyone to the
following website:
http://www.tentec.com/rfsquared/
So obviously there is not a FCC legal issue with end users updating firmware
in modern transceivers. If you look at the firmware upgrade notes, you'll
clearly see there where fixes in the firmware to the RF sections of these
radios.
Gee, a amateur radio company taking responsibility for their firmware bugs
and upgrading it for free... what a concept!
-Jeff
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:22:38 -0500
X-Message-Number: 14
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:00:44 -0500 (EST), Bob Bruninga wrote:
>On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Jeff King wrote:
>>Garmin provides free firmware upgrades to improve their GPS'es. So do many
>>other companies that value their customers and don't desire to put it to them
>>every time they can.
>>
>>Stop making excuses for what is obvious to everyone on the list...
>
>Those GPS's were developed using recent FLASH technology in the last few
>years.
You think so? How about the GPS 12 which was developed in the mid 90's? Here
are the free flash updates for it:
http://www.garmin.com/products/gps12/download.html
A manufacturer providing flash updates for a GPS from 1995, wow what a
concept!!
>The D700 and D7 were developed in the mid 90's before FLASH was
>mainstream
Flash was mainstream in the early 90's.
>AND (big and) and the FCC would not type-accept a radio that
>could be field programmed.
See my Urban legend's posting. TenTec for many years has offered field
updates for their radios starting with the Pegasus which has been out for
many years.
>Thus it has to go back to the shop, and partially disassembled, connected
>to a programmer, and then it takes 20 minutes to reburn the PROM, then
>reassemble...
Exactly how do you reburn a "PROM"? All the proms I know of are one time
programmable. Or did you mean a EPROM? Is there a big chip on the board with
a quartz window on it? Or do you just plug a cable into the board and run a
special program on it? That would imply a flash chip.
>At current labor rates, you'd go broke if you didnt charge
>for that process...
I think the posting was a gentlemen suggesting that Kenwood fix their bugs
(mistakes) at no charge. Darn, what a concept, a manufacturer that doesn't
charge users to fix their mistakes.
>And as for me, I'd like to see the only manufacturer of APRS radios stay
>in business!
APRS corporate welfare? BTW, are you still a paid Kenwood consultant?
-Jeff
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: "Ronald Reams" <wa4mjf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:28:56 -0500
X-Message-Number: 15
The only ham equipment that must be type-accepted (an obsolete term, BTW)
are "certain external RF amplifiers". See Part 97. Ham equipment must be
certified to meet Part 15 reqirements, but that is all that I'm aware of.
73 de Ronnie
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