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ZL3AI > APRDIG 26.05.04 08:50l 246 Lines 9322 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: "Richard Amirault" <ramirault@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:24:11 -0400
X-Message-Number: 20
Yes you *would* have a "bunch of them collecting over days..." in your GPS
as waypoints (provided you have your D700 setup to download each posit as a
waypoint)
I have waypoints of mobiles in my GPS from years ago. I don't think they are
anywhere near where my GPS says they are, but the houses and digi's don't
move so I leave them in.
Richard N1JDU
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Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:47:13 -0400
X-Message-Number: 21
>>>"Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com> 5/24/04 1:32:03 PM >>>
>What would be more annoying is all the objects on the
>internet with the same name that would cause tracklines
>to get drawn over the U.S. (or the world) as different
>people use the same object name/callsign for the price
>of gas...
Following that trackline would be the lowest cost cross country trip!......
Seriously though... PLEASE keep reading:
APRS functionality at the local level, howver, should not be compromiszed
by problems with the Internet. But this does raise the problem, because
there are MANY common object names that get used all the time.
Someone should look at a "internet" solution to this perpetual problem. The
RULE in APRS is that any new object will replace the old. But this was for
LOCAL RF nets. Maybe it should not apply to the internet?
Maybe the rule on the internet should be?
1) They are only the same if they are within 60 miles of each other.
2) Beyond 60 miles, they remain distinct and remain owned by their
respective uplinking stations. Within 60 miles someone else can take
them over, but otherwise, not... ?
Something to consider. Having the LEAD runner at a marathon in Georgia
taken over by the LEAD in sanfrancisco SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
THe Internet code needs to fix this some how... *without overruling* the
fundamental LOCAL rule that anyone locally can take over an object.
Bob
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Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: "Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:28:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 22
On Mon, 24 May 2004, Robert Bruninga wrote:
>Following that trackline would be the lowest cost cross
>country trip!...... Seriously though... PLEASE keep reading:
That's pretty funny!
>Someone should look at a "internet" solution to this perpetual
>problem. The RULE in APRS is that any new object will
>replace the old. But this was for LOCAL RF nets. Maybe
>it should not apply to the internet?
>
>Maybe the rule on the internet should be?
>1) They are only the same if they are within 60 miles of each other.
>2) Beyond 60 miles, they remain distinct and
> remain owned by their respective uplinking
> stations. Within 60 miles someone else can
> take them over, but otherwise, not...
>?
>
>Something to consider. Having the LEAD runner
>at a marathon in Georgia taken over by the LEAD
>in sanfrancisco SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.
>
>THe Internet code needs to fix this some how...
>*without overruling* the fundamental
>LOCAL rule that anyone locally can take over an
>object.
I'd be open to some changes here. I've long thought it a problem that I
couldn't post a "test" object for long without somebody else taking it over
via an object they posted elsewhere.
Ambulance, IPP/ICP/PLS (SAR objects), team1, team2, etc are all potential
problems.
On Firenet we've played with objects a bit trying to see who could take
them over and how they appeared under various APRS packages. For those
experiments we needed to be able to take over an object that was way out
there.
So, there are times when we would want country-wide or world-wide control,
but most of the time we wouldn't.
How about a box popping up if you try to move/take over an object/item that
was XX distance or more away, which asks the ever-present question "Are you
sure?" if it notes a similarly named object?
I guess that doesn't answer the problem when you have one or more of the
object-generating stations on RF-only, and you're watching both of them on
the internet. Neither would interfere with each other, but you'd still get
a trackline between them from the internet station, with the object
bouncing back and forth periodically.
--
Curt, WE7U http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:22:34 -0700
X-Message-Number: 23
>Maybe the rule on the internet should be?
>1) They are only the same if they are within 60 miles of each other.
>2) Beyond 60 miles, they remain distinct and
> remain owned by their respective uplinking
> stations. Within 60 miles someone else can
> take them over, but otherwise, not...
So if I run the tracker on my drive down to Long Beach, as I often do, then
get on a plane and turn on the tracker again when I get to DC, now I'm in
two places? Or does this apply only to objects? How about storms that may
be updated from a long distance?
Ad hoc rules like this aren't the answer. Or at least, not the best answer.
OpenTRAC addresses this issue by making the unique object identifier a
combination of the originating station ID and a serial number. Display name
is separate. You can name a dozen objects LEAD and they'll still be
distinct. It remains to be seen how the scheme will work in practice, but
the concept seems to be sound.
Incidentally, you could identify a gas station using a hazmat ID... UN1203
for gas/petrol, I think. There's no 'currency' element defined in the spec,
though. We did discuss a 'fuel type' element at one point, that'd let you
know there's e.g. diesel, CNG, hydrogen, or whatever available at a certain
location.
Scott
N1VG
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Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: Sean Jewett <sean@rimboy.com>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:16:58 -0500 (CDT)
X-Message-Number: 24
On Mon, 24 May 2004, Scott Miller wrote:
>Incidentally, you could identify a gas station using a hazmat ID... UN1203
>for gas/petrol, I think. There's no 'currency' element defined in the spec,
>though. We did discuss a 'fuel type' element at one point, that'd let you
>know there's e.g. diesel, CNG, hydrogen, or whatever available at a certain
>location.
I guess this would mean that my friend would put in BD000. Well,
technically there's the cost of the methanol (or other additive of your
choice) but that's neither here nor there.
Sean...
--
The punk rock will get you if the government don't get you first.
--Old 97's
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
KG4NRC http://www.rimboy.com Your source for the crap you know you need.
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Subject: Re: APRS Gas prices
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:35:27 -0400
X-Message-Number: 25
>>>"Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com> 5/24/04 3:28:26 PM >>>
>On Firenet we've played with objects a bit trying to see who could
>take them over and how they appeared under various APRS packages.
>For those experiments we needed to be able to take over an object
>that was way out there.
But, you can work around that by choosing a common "local" location
anywhere on the planet... Middle of ocean, etc..
>So, there are times when we would want country-wide
>or world-wide control, but most of the time we wouldn't.
Can you think of any workarounds?
If not, then do you have some ideas how to override the 60 mile rule?
>How about a box popping up if you try to move/take over an
>object/item that was XX distance or more away, which asks the
>ever-present question "Are you sure?" if it notes a similarly named
>object?
But this is not your choice? The choice has to affect every PC on the
internet... ? Im open to any KISS solutions... I'd rather do the 60 mile
KISS limit and then let those that need something else work the problem
from their end...
Bob
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Subject: Local versus Global APRS object names
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:48:52 -0400
X-Message-Number: 26
>>>"Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org> 5/24/04 4:22:34 PM >>>
>So if I run the tracker... down to Long Beach,
>...then get on a plane and turn on the tracker again
>when I get to DC, now I'm in two places?
Yes, I guess so. And the only consistent way for the APRS-Internet would
be to keep them separate. When one then views "where you are" they get an
hours-old posit in LA and a new fresh one in DC.
APRS should just present what it has, and let the viewer interpret the
meaning... This would solve this ongoing global common name problem...
Bob
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