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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.02.04 13:45l 238 Lines 9406 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: WIDEN vs UITRACE
From: Robbie WA9INF <mwrobertson@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:43:20 -0600
X-Message-Number: 7
Hi,
I am having trouble understanding and/or conveying my understanding of
the use of WIDEN on a digipeater, and then turn around and set UITRACE
on because of the callsign of the digipeater not showing up in the packets.
My understanding for the WIDEN was to cut the overall length of the
packet thus cutting bandwidth down in an area like Chicagoland..
Would not the use of UITRACE on the WIDEN digipeaters, if they all did
it, actually double the length of every WIDEN packet?? Actually
defeating the WIDEN concept altogether.
Thanks for responses,
Robbie
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Subject: high altitude balloon over Colorado.... update
From: "K. Mark Caviezel" <kmcaviezel@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:27:06 -0800 (PST)
X-Message-Number: 8
Gang:
Thanks for the comments, suggestions, and the off SIG flames.
For car-borne balloon tracking teams, the majority of packets are recieved
directly. However, the WIDE can get me a useful position update if I am
in the null of the balloon package antenna. I'm going to fly the balloon
with a single "WIDE" path which will enable the most effective real time
tactical tracking and recovery of the balloon payload string.
Note to the inexperienced: Just cuz a balloon lands does not mean it stops
moving. I've seen balloon payloads dragged over 1100 feet over the ground
after landing. I prefer low ballistic coefficient packaging and a streamer
to prevent this, most balloon groups use a parachute which can lead to the
'drag to the barb wire fence' syndrome.
In the Denver area, we rarely fly any balloon payloads on 144.39 to avoid
QRMing the "my car is parked here" and "my home is here" beacons which
constitute a shockingly high percentage of APRS traffic. I know balloon
groups in other parts of the country use 144.39 exclusively as they are
battling serious terrain obstacles and making use of all of the possible
ways to track and recover the payload leads to a better chance of
recovering the collection of expensive toys tied to a string. In the
eastern Colorado area, there is a fair percentage of 'mile square farm
grid' (e.g. dirt roads laid out on 1 mile grid) which enable us to
sometimes tactically maneuver and witness the payload landing.
Wish list: yup, it would be nice to turn off the "WIDE" for example over
10k feet, but not possible with the capabilities of the hardware I'm using.
I hope no one in the outlying radius will get too torked about my DX line
of site packets that may hit 300+ miles out from the balloon. But, it's
only 200mW, seems unlikely with the FM capture effect that my little QRP
beacon will be stepping on APRS packets for someone beaconing locally in an
adjacent state. This is after all a hobby. For me, receiveing a 200mW
beacon at 300+ miles range constitutes a neat QRP DX situation.
There is a cool EBBE (earth-balloon-balloon-earth) attempt going on on this
flight on 144.34 MHz, hams in the Colorado, Nebraska, Dakotas, Kansas, OK,
northern TX, UT, MO and other states are invited to listen and participate.
Details at
http://eoss.org/flight/index.html
73's de
- KMC kc0jhq (kc0jhq-11 is balloon-borne payload).
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Subject: Re: WIDEN vs UITRACE
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:03:52 -0500
X-Message-Number: 9
>>>Robbie WA9INF >>> wrote:
>I am having trouble understanding and/or conveying my
>understanding of the use of WIDEN on a digipeater, and
>then turn around and set UITRACE ...
>Would not the use of UITRACE on the WIDEN digipeaters,
>if they all did it, actually double the length of every WIDEN
>packet?? Actually defeating the WIDEN concept altogether.
Yes, but and its a big BUT...
1) WIDEn-N with N being greater than 2 was a 1994 concept long before APRS
became saturated in the cities. SO dont even think about N being greater
than 2 in dense areas.
2) In areas where WIDE4-4 or greater are usable, then there is no need to
make it UITRACE, so again, it is no issue.
3) The recommended path was always WIDE,WIDEn-N in the first place so that
we could identify the FIRST digi in the path as critical information., Thus
every packet had two digipeater hops anyway...
4) There is no difference between WIDE,WIDE1-1 (a two hop packet that is
network friendly) and TRACE2-2 as far as length of the packet is concerned.
In fact, TRACE2-2 is shorter, because the first hop is 7 bytes shorter, yet
the packet still arrives with a full path.
THUS AND IN SUMMARY:
Thus, in areas where 2 hops is about all anyone needs to communicate, the
SYSOPS in that area are taking control of the network and recognizing that
there is a lot to be gained by getting everyone to use TRACE2-2 routing.
But since TRACEN-N was not used, and since WIDEn-N is bad, the idea is to
change over to UITRACE as the WIDEn-N propogation mechanism since it is
self tracing and it is actually shorter on average than WIDE,WIDEn-N for N
that is 2.
Now then, this leaves open the UIFLOOD parameter for a name other than
WIDEn-N. Now it can be used for CHIGOn-N for example. And anyone can
launch a packet to CHIGO7-7 if they want and its potential for netwok
damage is not dependent on N (7) but on how many digipeaters institute
CHIGO7-7 routing. Each one of them will only digipeat once with no dupes
and this is far better for the network (and the desired result) than
letting a WIDE7-7 path propogate through 5 states...
See http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/fix14439.html
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: High Altitude Balloon Flights
From: "Bill Martin" <wa6rtx@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:10:34 -0600
X-Message-Number: 10
As an abnormal APRS User (Pun) I would like to follow the flight of the
Balloons without having to rely on FindU or other servers. I wish that the
people flying the balloons would Gate the position reports to the Internet
especially if on a frequency other than 144.39.
Too much traffic for some people? There is an on and off switch on most
equipment.
Bill - WA6RTX
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Subject: "Its just a hobby" (not!)
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:34:15 -0500
X-Message-Number: 11
>This is after all a hobby.
No, it is a way of life. You either do things right in your life, or you
don't. This is exactly why most APRS applications, be it the GUI's or
internet mapping applications, rival commercial products. These are serious
people doing this. And of the authors I know in APRS, almost to a one, they
also are well respected at their place of work or school.
It is a passion.
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Subject: Excessive paths on balloons was RE: High Altitude Balloon Flights
From: "Rochte, Robert" <rrochte@gpacademy.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:46:57 -0500
X-Message-Number: 12
I haven't a flameproof suit, so I try to keep out of most "discussions"
here... But...
I think it worth mentioning, at least this once, that high altitude balloon
flights seem to evoke more general interest in APRS than any other single
type of special event.
So perhaps the potential for QRM caused by excessive paths (and I'm assuming
that my path of RELAY,WIDE,WIDE qualified as "excessive") on balloons is
tolerable - maybe even *desirable* - given the attention that it calls to
APRS.
And not only to APRS, but to the many possibilities of this hobby, so few of
which are even considered by the average ham.
If I might be so bold, I would even suggest that a naughty balloon like mine
just *might* have given more than a few APRS users their first actual reason
to use that fancy Kenwood radio - or that software on their old PC - in a
long, long time...
With that, I'll run and hide from the flames - I'm afraid! =]
73,
Robert
KC8UCH
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Subject: Re: "Its just a hobby" (not!)
From: "Tyler Allison" <tyler@allisonhouse.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:15:39 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 13
>> This is after all a hobby.
>
>No, it is a way of life.
What do you mean "a way of life"? My life doesn't revolve around my radio,
which of course might tork those folks who's life does revolve around
theirs. Some folks look at me like Im a nut simply because I have a radio
in my car and a 'jump kit' in my trunk. I cant say amateur radio is a way
of life though.
>You either do things right in your life, or you don't.
True. Which has no baring on how you do amateur radio ;) Also, who defines
what is 'right'?
>This is exactly why most APRS applications, be it the GUI's or
>internet mapping applications, rival commercial products. These are serious
>people doing this.
Most people who are working on something they love (as compared to your
average workplace application developer) are serious about it.
>It is a passion.
Well that's true. Just look at the code-nocode debates. Talk about a
passion bordering on religion. ;)
-Tyler
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