| |
ZL3AI > APRDIG 23.10.03 13:49l 275 Lines 10584 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 2185-ZL3AI
Read: GUEST
Subj: TAPR Digest, Oct 21, 2/6
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<OK0PPL<DB0RES<ON0AR<WB0TAX<KP4IG<ZL2TZE<ZL3VML
Sent: 031023/1238Z @:ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC #:11030 [Chch-NZ] FBB7.00i $:2185-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:33 -0500
X-Message-Number: 8
At 10:08 AM 10/20/2003 -0400, Wes Johnston wrote:
>For those who may be interested, a kenwood d700 and garmin 162 gps will
>run for 31 hours beaconing every 30 minutes before exhausting a car
>battery. Always fun to learn such things on a monday morning.
Not good for the car battery either!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Mike Yetsko" <myetsko@insydesw.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:08:48 -0400
X-Message-Number: 9
>>For those who may be interested, a kenwood d700 and garmin 162 gps will
>>run for 31 hours beaconing every 30 minutes before exhausting a car
>>battery. Always fun to learn such things on a monday morning.
>
>Not good for the car battery either!
You're right! Amazing it slipped by everyone. This will be destructive to
the battery and lead to shorter life.
If you need to do this, use a 'deep cycle' battery designed to be depleted,
not a car battery that is designed for high current but never to be
depleted.
Mike
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Smart DIgis and the new Paradigm
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 10
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Wes Johnston wrote about the automatic assumption of
RELAY being equivalent to "get me to an igate"....
>to callsign substitution issues. The problem were running into here is
>that we are loosing consistency... sorry, but I'm back to thinking we're
>breaking the system. 100% of these examples would work if we'd just added
>the alias IGATE after the RELAY,WIDE instead of using RELAY as the litmus
>test for a user's willingness to have his path altered by the network.
I'm beginning to think you are right.
What I was trying to do under the new paradigm of where SYSOPS take
control of their networks, was to find a way for the sysops to start
forcing users that only want to get to an igate to get there and to
truncate their path beyond that...
>Of course that still leaves the issue of 90% of the people simply
>wanting to get to an IGATE and [having to] alter their paths to include
>the word IGATE.
Yep, but probably we will just have to put this one in the "user education
bin". BUT we should include all SYSOPS to have their smart digis look for
the "IGATE" flag and act accordingly. This will help!
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:16:01 -0500
X-Message-Number: 11
>If you need to do this, use a 'deep cycle' battery designed to be
>depleted, not a car battery that is designed for high current but never to be
>depleted.
Absolutely.
It surprises me, how little realization there is, that "a duck is a duck is
a duck" does NOT apply to batteries.
A NIMH isn't the same as a NIMH, isn't the same as a Nicad, etc.
*no typo above*
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:01:03 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 12
>>If you need to do this, use a 'deep cycle' battery designed to be
>>depleted, not a car battery that is designed for high current but never
>>to be depleted.
Comeon guys. You can occassionally run your APRS setup all weekend on
your CAR battery without any significant damage. SURE, use a deep cycle
if you do it everyday and want the system to last 5 years. But suggesting
to go to the tremendous aggrivation of installing a deep cycle battery for
occassional deep discharges makes no economic sense. The cost of doing
that is orders of magnitude greater than the 2 or 3% loss in the life of
your $50 car battery once every 5 years...
>It surprises me, how little realization there is, that "a duck is a duck
>is a duck" does NOT apply to batteries.
But conversly, no single rule applies for all potential uses of any
single given battery either...
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: James Washer <washer@trlp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:32:09 -0700
X-Message-Number: 13
Well, if you leave the mobile rig powered up 7x24... and your standby
current is ~1A (from the d700a manual). You're burning 24AH each day. Given
most (smaller) car batteries are rated less than 100AH, it won't take long
to find a car that won't start.
- jim
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:48:57 -0700
X-Message-Number: 14
And I think car batteries are typically designed for not more than 10%
discharge on a regular basis... the lead plates are made in a foam-like
configuration that gives a large surface area but degrades much faster when
discharged too much.
I picked up a deep cycle battery (about 85 AH I think) at Costco for about
$40... not that big an investment, and worth it to avoid wear on the car
battery.
Scott
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: "Mike Yetsko" <myetsko@insydesw.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:48:45 -0400
X-Message-Number: 15
If the battery is out, of course use what you got. Deep cycling a car
battery with APRS/GPS equipment WILL shorten it's life, but probably
not more than minimally if all it will be used FOR is APRS/GPS.
However, if this is a car battery, intended to go BACK into service IN a
car, you can SERIOUSLY affect it's acceptable service life in a car by
doing this even once.
Mike
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:35:19 -0500
X-Message-Number: 16
>Comeon guys. You can occassionally run your APRS setup all weekend on
>your CAR battery without any significant damage.
I'll let you argue with the vehicle battery manufacturers on this one.
While they will tolerate a deep discharge occasionally, they are not
designed for it, and it will kill them much faster than you think.
They are also not designed to run accessory loads for significant periods.
>SURE, use a deep cycle if you do it everyday and want the system to
>last 5 years. But suggesting
>to go to the tremendous aggrivation of installing a deep cycle battery for
>occassional deep discharges makes no economic sense.
10 discharges of 20% = how many full discharges?
None of us knows this answer exactly, but it's definitely non-zero, and
probably significant.
I went through four batteries in the last 5 years, with my explorer,
running a 50W tracker.
That was the only idle drain on the battery, and the charging system was
checked multiple times, by several shops.
Had dead batteries about once a month, more or less, more frequently as
each battery neared end of life.
Killed three security die-hards, the ones with the automatic cutoff to
prevent you fully discharging the battery.
YMMV. I live in Indiana, it's a bit colder here.
In the expedition, I have two 7AH deep-cycle gels running the same tracker
package, plus another rig for SSTV at idle receive, plus a preamp, and have
never had a dead battery. I've left the vehicle at the airport for over a
week, with everything running, and come back to find it still
running. It's been in place for over a year now, on a battery that had an
unknown amount of life on it when I got the car.
>The cost of doing that is orders of magnitude greater than the 2 or 3%
>loss in the life of
>your $50 car battery once every 5 years...
If that were the situation.
>>It surprises me, how little realization there is, that "a duck is a duck
>>is a duck" does NOT apply to batteries.
>
>But conversly, no single rule applies for all potential uses of any
>single given battery either...
However, you can read the data sheet, and know for sure.
Though on consumer products, this information may be hard to come by.
I noticed today at NAPA, they have a new spiral wound battery I was looking
at, and it had a warning tag, that any other use than vehicle starting is
NOT covered under the warrantee.
My gels are designed for this service.
My 25AH that runs the shack radios has been in service since before I got
the explorer, through all five of it's batteries, and this one as well, and
is still going strong.
8 years plus IIRC.
Article coming for PSR, on what I did to put the system together.
It's not that complicated, but it does the job right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: run time a car battery....
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:05:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 17
>However, if this is a car battery, intended to go BACK into service IN a
>car, you can SERIOUSLY affect it's acceptable service life in a car by
>doing this even once.
Well, now that I am dragged into this, I have to disagree with the term
"seriously" and "even once". Those are gross exaggerations...
My understanding is that The only difference between a deep cycle (boat
store kind) and regular car battery is the provision for a courser grain
structure on the plates and a larger area at the bottom of the cell for
the junk to collect as the plates age before they rise to the level of
being a problem (a short)...
Neither of these will be affected "seriously" even after several times of
doing it...
I wouldnt be surprised if the 50 month guarnateed car battery already has
some assumed DEEP cycle's included in thier computation of the typical
life of the Battery warranty. OK, so maybe you deep cycle it a few times
and end up shortening the life of the battery from 50 months to 49 months.
On the prorated warrantee, we are talking about $1 difference.
I know for certain that in any 50 month life of any battery I have ever
owned, that I have run the battery stone dead several times, and all
batteries have always lasted to the warranty period anyway.
Sorry to argue, but when I see words like "seriously" and "even once", it
sends up an "old-wives-tale-flag" in my face...
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Read previous mail | Read next mail
| |
