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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.09.03 10:22l 313 Lines 10832 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 17, 4/7
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: WB4APR's typing
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:32:42 -0500
X-Message-Number: 25
At 10:58 AM 9/17/2003, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>For those of you that are concerned about all the typo's that I dont
>bother correcting in my emails, this should be of interest:
>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy...
You can also invert letters in the middle and it won't slow you down...
Mark
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:30:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 26
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Mark Cheavens wrote:
>In West Texas (North) where there are many KPC-3's Relay is NOT allowed.
>(because of packet duplication bug, see my previous email).
Here is another example of well meaning, but missinformed hacking of the
fundamentals of APRS which destroys APRS on 144.39 as a national system.
There is no packet duplication bug -as stated- for RELAY!
Here is what is WRONG with this approach:
1) Every APRS station (within reason) is supposed to support RELAY as a
digipeating alias. This allows Mobiles to extend their range via any
nearby APRS asset. This is fundamental to APRS because mobiles have much
less range.
2) RELAY does CALLSIGN SUBSTITUTION at all digis and therefor eliminates
dupes because DIGIS will not duplicate a packet that has their call
already substituted.
3) The only stations that use RELAY are mobiles (a very small percentage
of stations).
4) Mobiles rarely if ever hit more than one digi at a time (remember, they
have mobile flutter with 30 dB variance on their signals. THus even the
rare occurence of a possible dupe is only a very small fraction of a very
small group of u sers ( lets say 5% of 5%, or less than 0.0025 of channel
capacity)
Thus, KILLING RELAY in West texas through local, uninformed action may
have only solved a 0.0025 problem, but at the same time, destroyed the
national APRS statndards, and reduced the ability of mobiles to get into
the network. This kind of short sighted thinking is killing APRS as a
national system.
de WB4APR, Bob
If there are problems with HOME users sending packets via RELAY, then FIX
that problem. Dont kill RELAY...
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Subject: Re: KPC3* digi -was- Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:33:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 27
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, BILL HERRMANN wrote:
>Has anyone ever contacted Kantronics to ask for that feature change? They
>just put out a new version of firmware for the KPC3+. If they had been
>contacted by enough people the feature change might have gone in.
Yes, I work with them and have requested it in their next ROM, but I
have NO INFORMATION about any future release date... if any..
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: Re: Help with status text
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:38:55 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 28
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Michael J. Wolthuis wrote:
>Everyone,
>Ihave a standard KPC3 that I want to beacon status text with, but not
>as part of the position beacon.
APRS stations only have two types of data, POSITIONS (with comment field)
and STATUS packet. Please use only these two and never alternate changing
texts. This is because Clinet program LOG "new" or "changed" data and so
if you put a changing STATUS or a changing (alternating) position comment,
then you force these programs to LOG every packet because every packet
turns out to appear to be "changing" its data.
You do state it correctly, that you want to put one kind of data in the
POSITION comment and the other in a periodic STATUS. This IS the right
way to do it. Thanks.
>The reason is that it is an IGATE and the NWS. We want to use the NWS
>Icon and beacon position as the NWS, but want to beacon an additionally
>status text every 60mins that says it is a full featured IGATE.
>
>Can anyone give me the context to put into the beacon text to make this
>happen.
Just put in a BText that begins with the letter ">" and it will be
interpreted as a status...
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving KISS
From: "Bill Vodall - WA7NWP" <wa7nwp@jnos.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:42:43 -0700
X-Message-Number: 29
>More ideas.
>On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Cap Pennell suggested for 10 min direct, 30 min 1
>hop, 1 hour 2 hop:
>
>>>WIDE2-2 EVERY 01:00:00 START 00:00:00
>>>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:10:00
>>>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:20:00
>>>WIDE EVERY 01:00:00 START 00:30:00
Good ideas all, but maybe not KISS. Just because we have four fields we
don't need to use them.
What's wrong with a simple two hopper every half hour and direct every 10
minutes?
WIDE2-2 EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:00:00
DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:10:00
DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:20:00
Or simpler yet:
WIDE2-2 EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:00:00
DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:15:00
The real world is getting wired with hotspots providing Megabit Internet
Voice and Video to PDA's (http://www.dailywireless.org/) and we're
spending weeks discussing saving a couple extra 30 byte packets per hour.
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:57:06 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 30
One more comment about RELAY. If people are seeing too many RELAY dupes,
then the first step is exactly opposite from killing RELAY at the digis.
The best fix is to make sure that home stations within mobile range
of the digi disable RELAY, not the digi!
If we just fix problems the right way, then we wont have networks being
hacked incorrectly...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving KISS
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 31
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Bill Vodall - WA7NWP wrote:
>Good ideas all, but maybe not KISS. Just because we have four
>fields we don't need to use them.
>
>What's wrong with a simple two hopper every half hour and direct
>every 10 minutes?
>
>WIDE2-2 EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:00:00
>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:10:00
>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:20:00
Well, it has twice as much load on the second tier of digis than does Cap's.
>Or simpler yet:
>
>WIDE2-2 EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:00:00
>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:15:00
This one also has twice the load on the second tier and doesnt provide the
10 minute DIRECT standard...
Bob
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Mark Cheavens <mcheavens@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:23:27 -0500
X-Message-Number: 32
Bob,
I agree that it (relay and wide alias) needs to be on.
BUT,
I disagree with your comments on dupes. (we have beat this to death and I
don't want to hash it out again)
AND You are WRONG about the KPC-3 Bug (I know it works exactly as the
manual states AND I have contacted Kantronics in the past)
IF the KPC-3 can act upon the N-N it will, For it's dupe checking I agree
that it uses callsign substitution on Relay, or Wide,
BUT, it ignores the substitution IF it can act upon the N-N (not in it's
dupe suppression).
It is not an "either or" or a "AND". It is a OR only.
I can duplicate it on the bench ALL the time.
I also disagree that a "very small percentage" are mobiles. There is a
LARGER number of fixed stations (but many are IS only).
Mark
KC5EVE
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Subject: Re: KPC3* digi -was- Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Mark Cheavens <mcheavens@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:26:01 -0500
X-Message-Number: 33
It was release within the last few weeks. But I don't know if it was
repaired as I have not tested V9.0 yet. Version 9 will only work in a 3+.
They have NO plans of updating the 3.
If you work with them what is there feeling on releasing the info for an
aftermarket rom for the 3?
They have ignored all my requests.
Mark Cheavens
KC5EVE
At 01:33 PM 9/17/2003 -0400, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, BILL HERRMANN wrote:
>
>>Has anyone ever contacted Kantronics to ask for that feature change? They
>>just put out a new version of firmware for the KPC3+. If they had been
>>contacted by enough people the feature change might have gone in.
>
>Yes, I work with them and have requested it in their next ROM, but I
>have NO INFORMATION about any future release date... if any..
>de WB4APR, Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: How To use RELAY in APRS
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:29:04 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 34
Here is a summary of how to use RELAY in APRS:
STATIONS THAT SHOULD HAVE RELAY AS AN ALIAS:
1) Every DIGI should have RELAY included in its callsign-substituion UI
digipeater function. (UIDIGI in KPC-3's)
2) Every HOME station that is far from a digi, in a valley with no digi
coverage, or in an area where mobiles do not get reliable coverage should
have RELAY as an ALIAS in their TNC's MYALIAS. (this supports nearby
mobiles).
3) Any voids or black holes that need mobile coverage, but that do NOT
need any more digipeaters, should but up a RELAY only digi that will fill
the void, but that will not add to any other digi congestion on the
frequency.
STATIONS THAT SHOULD *NOT* HAVE RELAY AS AN ALIAS:
Any stations that are close to a digi, or that have High HAAT such
that they will hear mobiles that can also hit other digis should NOT have
RELAY as an alias.
STATIONS THAT SHOULD -USE- RELAY AS A PATH:
Mobiles should use RELAY,WIDE in general. Maybe RELAY,WIDE,WIDE if
they are doing somethign important, on a long trip, or just want
to actively play APRS while mobile and try to work up some other
live contacts...
STATIONS THAT SHOULD *NOT* -USE- RELAY AS A PATH:
HOME or FIXED users should not use RELAY in their path and no one
should ever use RELAY as any other hop after the first as long as the
digis are working.
Its really very simple. Following these rules will give APRS mobiles the
best coverage possible yet will also eliminate most dupes, and will give a
consistent implementation throughout the continent. There are no problems
that cannot be solved by proper application of these simple rules.
de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob
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