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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.09.03 10:17l 282 Lines 10254 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 1958-ZL3AI
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 17, 5/7
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Sent: 030919/1402Z @:ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC #:8666 [Chch-NZ] FBB7.00i $:1958-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Paths
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:10:13 -0700
X-Message-Number: 35
From: "Bob Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
To: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Cc: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Re: Paths
>It sure conveys a lot more information to users when packets arrive as via
>W3ABC,W4XYZ than having them always arrive as WIDE2-0! And the
>cost of 7 bytes is small compared to the value... Hummh...
It really depends on the area, but in my area, I run WIDE,WIDE on my I gate
and it works just fine....And,,,,,my Igate is set to gate traffic it needs
to gate 2 hops so it's a good fit,IMO.
Jim
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:16:00 -0700
X-Message-Number: 36
From: "Mark Earle" <wa2mct@mearle.com>
To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:58 AM
Subject: [aprssig] RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
>OK.. what areas of the country REQUIRE relay in the user path?
>
>I've been running WIDE3-3 for some time, but an thinking of changing my two
>profiles to:
>
>WIDE,WIDE
>
>RELAY,WIDE4-4 (for trips to the boonies)
In my area, if I was passing thru, I would not run RELAY. I'd run
WIDE,WIDE or WIDE,WIDE2-2 and I'll bet that is all you need to do a darn
good job, You do NOT need WIDE4-4 in almost all cases for anything.
Jim, WA6OFT
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Subject: Re: WB4APR's typing
From: John W. (Bill) Hays <w0omv1@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:18:46 -0500
X-Message-Number: 37
Hmmmm...Dyslexia????
On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 10:58 AM, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>For those of you that are concerned about all the typo's that I dont
>bother correcting in my emails, this should be of interest:
>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
>waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
>the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total
>mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the
>huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
>
>boB
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Subject: RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving KISS
From: "Bill Vodall - WA7NWP" <wa7nwp@jnos.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:17:06 -0700
X-Message-Number: 38
>>Or simpler yet:
>>
>>WIDE2-2 EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:00:00
>>DIRECT EVERY 00:30:00 START 00:15:00
>
>This one also has twice the load on the second tier and doesnt provide the
>10 minute DIRECT standard...
>
>Bob
There are real issues and there are community conventions.
If a community decides on a DIRECT network time of 10 minutes or
15 minutes - that's a local convention.
If a network is so fragile and overloaded that having a few digi's send out
simple ID's at 30 minutes instead of 60 minutes causes a problem - that
sounds like a real issue to me.
The failure of a network to respond to a mobile driving through with a path
beginning with RELAY is a real issue.
Complex beacon timing rules are a distraction from the real issues and
opportunites. If folks like to dive in and tweak it to the last nanosecond
- great! For the overall picture, KISS!!! The difference will be
insignificant.
Bill - WA7NWP
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Subject: Re: WB4APR's typing
From: "Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:21:57 -0700
X-Message-Number: 39
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:58 AM
Subject: [aprssig] WB4APR's typing
>For those of you that are concerned about all the typo's that I dont
>bother correcting in my emails, this should be of interest:
>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
>waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
>the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total
>mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the
>huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."
>
>boB
This is so true....
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:06:08 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 41
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Mark Cheavens wrote:
>Bob, I agree that it (relay and wide alias) needs to be on.
>
>BUT,
>I disagree with your comments on dupes. (we have beat this to death and I
>don't want to hash it out again)
>
>AND You are WRONG about the KPC-3 Bug (I know it works exactly as the
>manual states AND I have contacted Kantronics in the past)
Im sorry you feel this way, but it is just not as you state. If a KPC-3
has RELAY or WIDE in its UIDIGI list, then it will do callsign
substitution and it WILL never digipeat that packet (which contains its
callsign) again. That is how it was designed, and that is how it works.
>IF the KPC-3 can act upon the N-N it will, For it's dupe checking I agree
>that it uses callsign substitution on Relay, or Wide,
>BUT, it ignores the substitution IF it can act upon the N-N (not in it's
>dupe suppression).
If that truely is the case, then it is a bug. But I would have to see it
to believe it. Again, I agree that a packet digipeated by a DIFFERENT
digi that was also callsign substituted by THIS digi, will get duped. But
that is not what you appear to be claiming...
Are you sure you are not talking about RELAY and WIDE as "MYALIASES"? If
this is what you are talking about, then it is an error in the set-up of
the digi. No modern TNC with callsign substitution should ever use the
MYALIAS for anything. These are replaced by the UIDIGI parameters.
Agree completely that if someone uses the MYALIAS in a KPC-3 or 3+ then
they are causing all kinds of problems and should remove that to fix the
problems. Callsign substitution works only on the UIDIGI list...
Bob
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: WA8LMF2@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:10:17 EDT
X-Message-Number: 42
In a message dated 9/17/03 7:12:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
wa2mct@mearle.com writes:
>Are there areas where the preceeding relay is either:
>required, ie, no digipeat without it?
>or
>it breaks things, no digipeat becuase relay is there?
Southern Cal digis ignore RELAY -- any path starting with it won't go
anywhere....
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Subject: Re: Paths
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:10:55 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 43
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Robbie wrote:
>I thought one a the good features of WIDEn-N was that some of the WIDE
>digipeaters dupe check with this, and if you have WIDE,WIDE,WIDE, some
>digipeaters hear it coming back and transmit it again. I have seen this
>many times in the Chicagoland area.. With callsign sub in this case,
>anyone can see it happen..
Two comments.
1) Yes, back prior to 1997 before we had PACCOM or KANTRONICS WIDE-
callsign substitution and back before UIDIGI and DIGI_NED, then W,W,W,
was a big no-no and caused lots of looping.
2) But even with callsign substitution it squares the probability of
getting one of those non-fratricided dual-initial-digi dupes... thus,
I do not receommend more than 2 WIDES ever. If one must go more than 2
hops, then WIDE,WIDE2-2 or WIDE3-3 is the better way to go.
>I think WIDE,WIDE is appropriate, and anything beyond 2 hops, would be
>WIDE,WIDEn-N
Ah, yes, we are thinking alike... thanks
Bob
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Subject: RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving KISS
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:25:24 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 44
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Bill Vodall - WA7NWP wrote:
>>This one also has twice the load on the second tier and doesnt provide the
>>10 minute DIRECT standard...
>
>There are real issues and there are community conventions.
>
>If a community decides on a DIRECT network time of 10 minutes or
>15 minutes - that's a local convention.
But why do we need all these fractional local community conventions? If
there is some objective or some problem they are trying to solve, then
there are other ways to solve those problems, than hacking away at the
national standards.. What is so wrong with following the standard so the
APRS is consistent to all users?
(and so we can have a CONSISTENT user set of guidelines!) With WEB pages
being so global, and people getting APRS info off the WEB, now you are
saying that anything you read now has to be interpreted through LOCAL
conventions. AND Ill bet you that 99 out of 100 web pages do NOT identify
their physical location. This is why APRS is disintegrating and users
have NO CLUE what is the right way to do things...
>If a network is so fragile and overloaded that having a few digi's send out
>simple ID's at 30 minutes instead of 60 minutes causes a problem - that sounds
>like a real issue to me.
We agree here! The HACKS that locals are making to DIGI conventions are
causing far more problems than good...
>The failure of a network to respond to a mobile driving through with a
>path beginning with RELAY is a real issue.
>
>Complex beacon timing rules are a distraction from the real issues
>and opportunites. If folks like to dive in and tweak it to the last
>nanosecond - great! For the overall picture, KISS!!! The
>difference will be insignificant.
I dont think there is all that much complexity in setting 3 versus 4 BLT's
in a digi. The KISS bottom line as seen by the user is where KISS
applies. That is, 10 minute DIRECT beacons is the KISS objective in my
mind. or something like that.
Bob
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