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ZL3AI > APRDIG 19.09.03 10:27l 269 Lines 9362 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 16, 6/9
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:21:14 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 33
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Spider wrote:
>Weather Stations
>Gaging Stations
>Resource Tracking
>
>What else can APRS tactical communications provide?
The most fundamental of all:
> Who is on the air and participating in the net in real time
> The location of every local asset on the air and live...
These are the two that everyone overlooks, yet, they are the most
fundamental. A fundamental function for every NET is maintaining a list
of its participants (and where they are) so that it knows what assetts it
has available to do its business... and who needs what... and where...
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: APRS Network Infrastructure ID's
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:45:17 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 34
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, AE5PL Lists wrote:
>>Your statements advocating turning off all DIGI position packets and
>>operating in the blind to me is counterproductive to any meaningful
>>expectations for what APRS is there to do...
>
>Bob, I NEVER advocated turning off ALL digi position packets.... I did
>say that usage of APRS for messaging over more than 2 hops in the DFW
>area is unreliable at best and no EC in our area is even considering use
>of APRS for that purpose....
I think then we are in total agreement!
And just to clarify, here is the current recommendation for APRS
digipeaters in typical well connected areas with reasonable numbers of
users:
FUNDAMENTAL: 1) Digis send a local DIRECT posit once every 10 mins
TYPICAL: 2) Digis should send a WIDE posit once every 30 mins or so
DEBATABLE: 3) Digis may send a W2-2 posit once every 3 hours or so
The NETWORK loads of these stanadards are miniscule and not worth all
this haggling! Especially compared to their value to users... In areas
where every digi can hear at least 3 others here are the loads:
1) 10 min local packet = 0.0016 channel load
2) 30 min WIDE = 0.0016 channel load
3) 3 hour WIDE3-3 = 0.0016 channel load
Total network load for reliable Network self identification = 0.005
This leaves the other .995 of channel capacity available for the user
load. (and that is where the PATH abuse is...)
Now if local sysops want to start hacking away at these APRS network
infrastrucutre standards, then I suggest they can start with #3. Cut back
to W2-2 every 3 hours and they can save 0.0012 channel capacity (not a
significant change at all). Or eliminate it entirely so that their users
have no clue what the network is beyond their 2 hop limit and save another
0.0016.
But never give up on #1. That is fundamental to APRS.
If sysops are so draconian that they are nitpicking these teeny-weeney,
miniscule loads on the system instead of attacking the other 99% of the
problem in their local area, then they are missguided and working
counterproductively....
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: Nodes versus DIGI's
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:52:19 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 35
The point that someone was trying to make is that to communicate well, we
must use common terminology. For anyone who has been in AX.25 ham
radio packet:
"NODE" means a level-4 AX.25 element that does link-by-link acknowledgment
and was the thing that saved PACKET from the disasters of long
end-to-end and unreliable paths. It handles CONNECTED packets very
well.
"DIGI" is totally different. It is used in unconnected mode like APRS.
It serves UI packets.
Now, to these fundamental definitions, as we are working towards improving
the routing in our "digi" based network, we are beginnning to use the
terms DUMB DIGI and SMART-DIGI. But we should not use the term "node"
in APRS because it just confuses most everyone who knows of NODES as a
totally different animal.
Hope this clarifies...
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: Travel Report on use of "WIDE" - IGATE access
From: Gonzales Andy <agonzales@arc.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:09:13 -0700
X-Message-Number: 36
On my outbound trip from Sunnyvale to San Luis Obispo on Saturday,
9/13, I had by radio running in a standalone mode, without WinAPRS.
When I checked my internet track at home I found that:
Sunnyvale to SLO on US-101 was gated into the
internet with a path of WIDE2-2
On my return trip from San Luis Obispo to Sunnyvale on Monday, 9/15,
I had WinAPRS initially set to WIDE. I eventually changed the setting
to WIDE2-2. When I checked my internet track at home I found that:
SLO to Morro Bay to Cambria, on US-1 was gated into the internet
with a path of WIDE
Cambria to Paso Robles on CA-46 was gated into the
internet with a path of WIDE
Paso Robles to Salinas on US-101 WAS NOT gated into the internet
with a path of WIDE
Salinas to Sunnyvale on US-101 was gated into the
internet with a path of WIDE2-2
This seems to confirm that for internet tracking in California, at
least a WIDE2-2 path is required
--
Andy Gonzales
NASA / Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
Bldg. N-244, Rm. 240
MS 244-19
agonzales@arc.nasa.gov
650-604-0309
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Subject: Re: Travel Report on use of "WIDE" - IGATE access
From: Gonzales Andy <agonzales@arc.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:38:14 -0700
X-Message-Number: 37
Apparently at the south end of my trip, I was being picked up by
KD6DSI-5 then the IGATE at N1VG.
KG6RWO-1
--
Andy Gonzales
NASA / Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000
Bldg. N-244, Rm. 240
MS 244-19
agonzales@arc.nasa.gov
650-604-0309
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Subject: Send KPC-3+ beacon data by email?
From: "Rochte, Robert" <rrochte@gpacademy.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:35:37 -0400
X-Message-Number: 38
This might be a wacky question - and please forgive me if my nomenclature is
messed up in regards to all of this... Anyway, here goes...
Is it possible to configure one of the KPC-3+ beacon lines to send an email
via APRS that contains one or more of the GPS strings? That is, could the
beacon configuration look something like this (from memory - I don't have
the KPC with me):
1 $GPRMC
2 $GPGGA
3 :E :RROCHTE@GPACADEMY.ORG $GPRMC
4
Where lines 1 and 2 are part of the normal configuration for APRS and line 3
is used to automatically send a message. If that #3 entry is then beaconed
every five minutes, will it substitute the value of the $GPRMC string and
then send the APRS message (and thus an email via APRSworld.net containing
the position data)?
Or is this totally impossible?
Thanks.
-R
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Subject: Re: Travel Report on use of "WIDE" - IGATE access
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:02:42 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 39
>On my outbound trip from Sunnyvale to San Luis Obispo on Saturday,
>
>Sunnyvale to SLO on US-101.. WIDE2-2 [worked]
>SLO to Morro Bay to Cambria, WIDE [worked]
>Cambria to Paso Robles on CA-46... WIDE [worked]
>Paso Robles to Salinas on US-101 WIDE [did not work]
>Salinas to Sunnyvale on US-101 WIDE2-2 [worked]
>
>This seems to confirm that for internet tracking in California, at
>least a WIDE2-2 path is required
Or it could show you that local sysops have disabled WIDE.
WIDE is not the same as WIDE1-1. THey are different algorithms in the
digis and some SYSOPs are throwing out the universal WIDE because they
think it will help cut down user bad choice of paths. When in fact, it
just undermines the integrity of the APRS system.
THe better fix is to educate and teach users the proper paths.
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: Re: Travel Report on use of "WIDE" - IGATE access
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:13:46 -0700
X-Message-Number: 40
Well, it's good to know my IGATE was up - I was just looking at it because
the logging got screwed up and made it look like it'd been down since
Sunday.
Yeah, once you get past the Cuesta Grade going north, you're probably going
to need another hop to get to me. I think N6TBQ used to cover the north end
of that stretch, but I'm not seeing him (except his van) on my map right
now. Does anyone know if that IGATE has gone offline, and if so, is there
an active IGATE anywhere between Salinas and San Francisco?
Scott
N1VG
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: "Jack R. Smith" <jack.smith2@us.army.mil>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:16:58 -0500
X-Message-Number: 41
Amen!!! If you can't see (hear) them, then they're not a resource you can
contact and put to use.
de KE4LWT Jack
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