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ZL3AI > APRDIG 19.09.03 10:14l 217 Lines 10132 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: WiFi at DCC
From: "John R. Ackermann N8UR" <jra@febo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:11:30 -0400
X-Message-Number: 23
Unfortunately, the hotel doesn't have WiFi capability, and their charge for
ethernet access in the meeting room is more than we can absorb. We will
have an analog line available because a couple of the presenters need 'net
access for their presentations, but I don't think it's practical to tie an
analog line to an access point in a room with 100 nerds :-) (If folks show
up with the right hardware, we may give it a try, though).
73,
John N8UR
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Subject: Re: WiFi at DCC
From: "Jason Rausch" <ke4nyv@hamhud.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:12:0
X-Message-Number: 24
Bummer :o(
Oh well, looking forward to it! See everyone in Hartford this week.
Jason KE4NYV
www.ke4nyv.com
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:46:16 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 25
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Mark Earle wrote:
>I think your.. strong statements on both sides are because, Bob, you are
>preaching the ideal, and Pete is preaching APRS as his group has decided to
>use it. The two are not necessarily equal.
>
>Also, at least from watching the Internet feeds, D7/700 users are the
>minority of APRS users around Texas. So most users are NOT going to, in an
>emergency, dynamically change the path of the tracker. Whatever is in there
>before the emergency is called, is what is going to go on the air.
I think Pete and I agree on most of what we are both saying, but we are
arguing over some of the finer details which are being glossed over.
I would never expect mobile to be changing paths. I think everyone is
looking at a different part of the puzzle. The only people I would
expect to be dynamically changing their paths are the base station
operators that need to get a MESSAGE through to another EOC or home
station. MESSAGES need to have fine tuned paths.
APRSdos lets you send any message along any pre-defined path by just
adding /XX after the call. Where XX is one of up to 15 diffeerent paths
such as /NN for North. /NE for North east, etc. Each message then goes
using the OPTIMUM DIGIS'-by-name path.
>I am probably typical of this type of user. My Pic-E has wide3-3 as one
>profile, and trace7-7 as the other. If it can't be done with one of those,
>once the emergency hits, I am not going to have the time or resources to
>mess with it.
Again, I never said nor expected mobiles to be changing paths. I am
talking about efficient operation by the humans sitting at their
keyboard, trying to communicate...And I am defending the position that
DIGI's need to ID periodically so that their active presence is known.
>OK. my opinion.. as Pete notes, he can determine if his LOCAL digi is up or
>down real time, even if it never IDs.
How? By sending packets to test it? We dont need to be encouraging
more packets, we need to be sending less. One packet from a DIGI
showing that it is alive and ON line and has power, is worth far
more than its 0.001 channel load.
>Beyond that, what is he going to do if the NEXT digi in the string is
>down? If it's not LOCAL to him, nothing. It's up to someone LOCAL to
>the failed digi to go fix it, determine what's wrong, etc. All any user
>can do at that point is change power, antenna, and perhaps path. OR,
>"someone" if prepared, may throw up a temporary digi to fill in the gap.
Thats not going to happen in real time. You need to see on the map what
digi's are alive and be able to react to use them... Remember, we all
agree that WIDE3-3 is no longer good for the network for general users and
just tooling around. But this whole discussion is whether DIGI's, our
most critical assets, should send out a ID's according to these
reqcommendations:
LOCAL every 10 minutes <== I view this as fundamental
ONE-HOP every 30 minutes <== This is good
Regional once every 3 Hours. <== I think 3-3 or 2-2 here is reasonable
Notice, I do not feel strongly about #3. I was only arguing against some
of the nearsighted arguments that say that no one EVER needs to be aware
of their surrounding DIGI's. I disagree, and believe that a W2-2 or W3-3
every few hours is important to the users to be aware of the network in
their surrounding areas. This is a far greater improvement over what some
digis are now doing with W3-3's every 10 minutes which is orders of
mangnitude worse.
Lets fix the bad apples befor we chop down all the trees...
Bob, WB4APR
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:23:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 26
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, AE5PL Lists wrote:
>>Well, then they better. If users are not adjusting their paths for
>>optimum during an emergency, then they are not practicing
>>preparedness. Then is when you want people to only direct their info
>>where it needs to be, not all over the place.
>
>Bob, a 30 mile radius is "not all over the place". And, in fact, if
>they are muddling with their path settings during an emergency then they
>are taking probably taking valuable time away from their emergency
>activities.
We need to define who "they" are. In my sentence, THey are the EOC and
emergency ops trying to pass messages and annotate objects affecting given
areas. I am not talking about mobiles and others out doing their jobs.
I'm talking about those operators who should be focused on the network to
make sure things are working to support the emergent need...
>>>In this area, that means no more than 2 hops.
>>Ah, I see, You are declaring that in an emergency, that there cannot
>>be any traffic for outside your 2 hop limit? Well, that seems short
>>sighted and exactly opposed to the basis for using APRS to get the
>>data to where it needs to go... Yes, MOST traffic is local and that
>>is the major need. But I dont like your throwing out the baby with
>>the bath water... of declaring NO 3 hop packets are allowed...
>
>As I indicated before, APRS is not well suited for communications beyond
>2 hops in a high activity area so any attempt to rely on it for that is
>poor planning at best, futile in most circumstances. We have a number
>of other communications methods available to us that are far superior to
>single-frequency UI AX.25 for medium to long range distances.
Yes, But what I am aguing against is making draconian lines in the sand
that say things like "no one will ever use more than 2 hops in our
emergency", and then making network tweaks to enforce that. This kills
the flexibility of APRS to respond to what ever comes up..
>>I have been told repeatedly that it takes 3 hops to go 90 miles or
>>less in Texas. Is DFW any better?
>
>Who told you that? Take a look at the digi spacing on any map of Texas.
>WIDE2-2 in north Dallas is consistently heard in Waco and in Oklahoma,
>and in east Texas, and west of Ft. Worth. Hmm. 100+ mile RADIUS with
>only 2 WIDE hops? Times change, Bob.
This is good news. Now, what happens when one of those super-digis goes
out? And none of the other digis are identifing themselves? THen no one
knows what else is out there.. that is what concerns me...
>Not when multiple digis are trying to repeat the same packet. And the
>only data that might be of true value 2 or more hops away during an
>emergency is messaging, which is markedly worse because of the broadcast
>acking. Nets for emergency operations are LOCAL (within 30 miles or
>within 1 digi hop). You might like to know what is going on in Dallas
>when you are in Oklahoma City, but during an emergency that doesn't and
>shouldn't factor in. APRS is used tactically on a local level and other
>communication modes are used to bridge to out-of-area operations.
I think we are in total agreement on these points...
>No Bob, you aren't seeing the point. During an emergency, our operators
>are being taught to rely on RELAY,WIDE for mobile/portable operations
>and DIGICALL,WIDE for fixed station operations. Why? Because those
>paths will cover ANY emergency in our area.
We agree completely here. No need to argue our agreements over and over..
except, your line in the sand "ANY". I'd say "MOST". I react to such
hard lines as "ANY" because then sysops start making draconian cuts in the
system to match only their pre-conceived notions and we end up with a
rigid system, without any flexibilty and which is totally dependent on
single key elements that then bring chaos when one fails...
>If a digi in the area is down, then we will set up a portable digi with
>the RELAY or WIDE alias to cover the affected area. Having anything
>else in the path is counterproductive to our tactical operations.
>Based on this, why would a digi need to beacon every 10 minutes and why
>would someone in Austin need to see our WIDE digi?
If the Digis is ID'ing like it is SUPPOSED TO, that is a local direct
packet once every 10 minutes, then 1) that is only 0.001 of channel
capacity and well worth it. and 2) since it is direct, they shouldnt see
it in Austin...
>As you have said in the past, KISS. And that is just what we do in our
>emergency planning. APRS is a great tactical tool. We have no
>illusions about trying to use it for anything else. Nor do we promote
>operating practices that could be counterproductive to that use.
Your statements advocating turning off all DIGI position packets and
operating in the blind to me is counterproductive to any meaningful
expectations for what APRS is there to do... ANd it it not the KISS
approach, because it means you are depending on other functions in the
heirarchy to keep your network working... and everyone informed..
de WB4APR, Bob
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