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ZL3AI > APRDIG 17.09.03 21:30l 264 Lines 10741 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: [ "Curt Mills, WE7U" ] Re: APRS symbol updates WAS: Re: Node
Symbol on map.findu.com
From: "Gregg G. Wonderly" <gregg@skymaster.cytetech.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:22:21 -0500
X-Message-Number: 37
>Another option would be to define a vector format that the apps
>could parse directly and decide how to draw. It doesn't have to be
>one of the formats you specified above.
>
>Considering that may of the apps implement ESRI Shapefiles in order
>to draw the NOAA weather alerts, that might be a good choice though.
There are many vector graphics standards. It would seem like a good idea
to adopt one for APRS use, put a team of people together to write some
libraries with pluggable drawing support, and then several authors would
have compatible stuff.
Or, it could be done with Java and then it would run nearly everywhere that
people are using APRS GUI environments. If only I had 80 hours in every
day... Someday soon, I am going to rewrite the Xaster map rendering stuff
in java so that I can have those image types supported in JeAPRS. I have
the Palm DB stuff sort of working, but I need to tie in the layering
support...
-----
gregg@cytetech.com (Cyte Technologies Inc)
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Subject: Re: Node Symbol on map.findu.com list has MIC in it - huh ?
From: WA8LMF2@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:20:30 EDT
X-Message-Number: 38
In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:05:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hacker@tc.fluke.com writes:
>Xastir should be very close to being correct, including the APRS
>errata symbols on Bob Bruninga's web pages.
>
>Xastir also uses 20x20 icons.
Is there somewhere I can see the full set online without installing the
application?
I have tried to get Xastir running but so far I have been completely
unsuccessful in getting Cygwin to work on either my Win98 or Win2K systems.
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Subject: Re: [ "Curt Mills, WE7U" ] Re: APRS symbol updates WAS: Re: Node
Symbol on map.findu.com
From: "Curt Mills, WE7U" <hacker@tc.fluke.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:29:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 39
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Gregg G. Wonderly wrote:
>There are many vector graphics standards. It would seem like a good idea to
>adopt one for APRS use, put a team of people together to write some libraries
>with pluggable drawing support, and then several authors would have compatible
>stuff.
Sounds like a plan.
>Or, it could be done with Java and then it would run nearly everywhere that
>people are using APRS GUI environments. If only I had 80 hours in every
>day... Someday soon, I am going to rewrite the Xaster map rendering stuff in
>java so that I can have those image types supported in JeAPRS. I have the
>Palm DB stuff sort of working, but I need to tie in the layering support...
Cool! We'll try to keep you busy so that you'll never catch up...
hi hi
BTW: I like Java too.
--
Curt Mills, WE7U hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: Re: Node Symbol on map.findu.com list has MIC in it - huh ?
From: "Curt Mills, WE7U" <hacker@tc.fluke.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:35:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 40
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 WA8LMF2@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 9/15/2003 3:05:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>hacker@tc.fluke.com writes:
>
>>Xastir should be very close to being correct, including the APRS
>> errata symbols on Bob Bruninga's web pages.
>>
>>Xastir also uses 20x20 icons.
>
>Is there somewhere I can see the full set online without installing the
>application?
>
>I have tried to get Xastir running but so far I have been completely
>unsuccessful in getting Cygwin to work on either my Win98 or Win2K systems.
Sorry to hear that. We of course have no control over Cygwin. Some people
have effortless installs, some can't get it to work at all. Until you can
get to that level on a Windows box, installing Xastir ain't going to work.
Installing Xastir on other operating systems is much easier.
Try this link, which will show you the latest symbols definition file:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xastir/xastir/symbols/
Click on the rev number next to symbols.dat to see the file. Right now
it's revision 1.18. The color definitions corresponding to the letters are
defined in src/draw_symbols.c, so go back one level then into the src
directory to find that file.
--
Curt Mills, WE7U hacker_NO_SPAM_@tc.fluke.com
Senior Methods Engineer/SysAdmin
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math!"
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates!" -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Hurricane Isabel
From: Gerry Creager N5JXS <gerry.creager@tamu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:57:54 -0500
X-Message-Number: 41
Some of us depend on these posts. You're NOT wasting your time.
gerry
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:58:28 -0700
X-Message-Number: 42
Don't be fooled by those wacky Canadians... they all speak English. They
just pretend they don't to avoid listening to Americans. You just have to
speak VERY LOUDLY, and V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y, and anyone can understand
English. ;]
Just ask any American tourist on the streets, anywhere but, well, America...
Scott
N1VG
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Subject: Re: Abusive Digi id paths Was: Can someone contact this guy?
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:59:26 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 43
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, AE5PL Lists wrote:
>Keep WIDE3-3 in your area, Bob. WIDE3-3 is severe overkill in here and
>is actively discouraged for use by ANY station in this area.
Agree completely with the statement "ANY" user station. But I never said
anything about that. My recommendaiton for WIDE3-3 was for the DIGI
and ONLY ONCE EVERY 3 HOURS. These are our infrastructure.
Knowledgible users need to know what their network looks like.
The way I figure it, one 3-3 packet from each digi once every 3 hours is
like only 1 digi per every 10 minutes. There are dozens of other QRM
packets in the system that need to be reduced before you throw out the
digis.
>You have continually stated that APRS is a tactical protocol. I don't
>see how trying to get a digi's beacon (fixed station of local interest
>only) to cover hundreds of miles is being tactical. Why does someone in
>San Antonio need to see stations in DFW via RF (or vice versa)?
We aren't talking "stations" we are talking DIGIS which are the
basis of the whole network infrastructure. In a tactical real-time
situation, we ENCOURAGE users to use directed paths to get their data
where it has to go. In order to do that , they MUST know what part of the
network is still working at that time. That is why DIGIS ID...
>144.39 in the DFW area is already running saturated most of the time and
>much of the traffic is from stations over 100 miles away. In an
>"EMERGENCY", the last thing we will want are stations from outside the
>area QRM'ing our local operations.
Agree completely. But solve the "station" problem without destroying
the digi's latency in the network Infrastructure.
>You are right, knowledge is power, but I don't think that means
>broadcasting to stations hundreds of miles away via a protocol that was
>never designed to do that reliably.
I think your comments are off on a tangent. The recommendation was for
DIGIS and it was ONE 3-3 packet every 3 hours. This is nothing compared
to the problems you are talking about. (Which we both fully agree are the
primary problem. Users with TOO LONG paths... (and many digis)...
>We also encourage people to set fixed stations at 20 minute beacon
>rates. Why? Because that keeps inside of the 30 minute window some
>software have for history yet keeps overall QRM at a minimum. Why does
>avisitor, etc. need to know the callsign of a nearby digi... anyway?
APRS is a tactical network designed to give a net cycle time of 10 minutes
latency for local use (direct or 1 hop).. (30 mins for regional).. THat
means, within 10 minutes of turning on the radio, someone should have a
real-time tactical picture of the network available to him (direct or one
hop).
Saying that no one needs to hear the digi is like saying that no one needs
to check into an emergeny net just to say they are there. That's just not
how emergency nets work. Nets HAVE to know what assets are available and
ON line in real time. It is not good practice to expect someone to wait
30 minutes to see if the local digi is up..
>If the nearby digi is repeating RELAY and WIDE (WIDEn-n), isn't that all
>they need or want to know?
Yes for the casual user. But under stress, we want ALL users to then look
at their maps in detail and to CHOSE their paths in real time to get any
given bit of data to the intended recepient using the most direct and
efficient directed path avaiable. To do that, one needs to know what is
on line and where.
>I understand that when APRS is not readily supported in area, people
>like to see some activity. But when it is heavily supported, such as
>here, I think people need to revisit their beacon rates and paths to be
>both a good neighbor and to allow APRS to be used for what it does well:
>tactical communications.
We agree completely. But digis should ID once every 10 minutes locally.,
once every 30 minutes (or so) via one hop. And beyond that, I see value
in once every 3 hours or so, sending a WIDE3-3.
Dont think 24/7. Turn your PC off for a few days. THen when the power
goes out, turn on your laptop in the dark connected to an HT on 144.39 and
see how much you would love to see what digis are STILL ON THE AIR in real
time (remember they lose power too!)
Maybe one would think that he will PING every digi in the surrounding
area to see what digis are on. Well, if the other 1000 people in his
area think the same way, then imagine how jammed and useless the network
will be for the first hour of pinging...
de WB4APR, Bob
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