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VK2AAB > FUEL 10.02.11 14:33l 46 Lines 2396 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 1545_VK2AAB
Read: GUEST
Subj: Re: G3YSE Oil & Population
Path: DB0FHN<DB0MRW<DB0ERF<DB0FBB<DB0IUZ<DB0GOS<ON0AR<ON4HU<SR1BSZ<GB7CIP<
VK2AAB
Sent: 110209/2159Z @:VK2AAB.#SYD.NSW.AUS.OC #:1545 [SYDNEY] $:1545_VK2AAB
From: VK2AAB@VK2AAB.#SYD.NSW.AUS.OC
To : FUEL@WW
Peter; I think what you are suggesting will work, but, and there is always a
but in this business.
You suggest, wind and solar to produce electricity, then to store it and
to use the electricity to produce hydrogen.
Then I presume either burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine or
use a fuel cell to produce electricity to run an electric motor.
Count the number of times that the energy is changed from one form to another
in that chain. Each time a conversion is done a certain percentage of energy
is lost. Its a 60% of 80% of 50% of 90% problem it just means you get so little
out the other end that it costs the earth.
Hydrogen is not a fuel like petrol, it is an energy carrier, like electricity.
I believe petrol will always be available for use in jobs like chain saws etc
as the economic return of the labour saved is so high that the cost of the
petrol will be worth it. If you had a big tree two feet in diameter it would be
worth the 10 pound for 1/2 gallon of petrol because of the labour saved.
That little example shows where the problem lies. Petrol and diesel has such
a high energy content in a small volume that it can move a one ton vehicle
with four fat people at 100 mph down the motorway for 500 miles on the fuel in
the hidden tank in the back.
It is when other energy sources are tapped that the problems arise.
Bio fuels need energy to fertilise the land on which they are grown.
They need energy to run the farm machinery, they need energy to move the crop
to the refinery, they need more to run the refinery and the end product has to
be transported to the service station, and in the end the ethanol has only about
60% of the energy of petrol.
Yes, Peter, it is all really dismal I am afraid, and the worse part is that in
the end is that four letter word that crushes many ideas, ERoEI.
Energy Returned on Energy Invested.
Unless you get significantly more energy out than you put in then you have
lost the game.
Ethanol is an example of that, you only get about 1.5 times the energy back
that you put in. Oil used to be that you got back 100 times what you put in,
but the easy oil has mostly gone and it is now down to around
five to ten times what you put in. That is why it has become so expensive and
as higher percentages come from deep sea sources so it will get worse.
73 Barry VK2AAB
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