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G0SYR > HELP 21.11.04 14:17l 171 Lines 7955 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 54221G0SYR
Read: GUEST
Subj: Re: KB2VXA and forwarding
Path: DB0FHN<DB0MRW<OK0PPL<DB0RES<ON0AR<VK6HGR<GB7YFS<GB7CIP<GB7CIP<GB7CIP
Sent: 041121/1207Z @:GB7CIP.#32.GBR.EU $:54221G0SYR
T:From: g0syr <g0syr@gb7cip.ampr.org>
T:Newsgroups: ampr.help
T:Message-Id: <19wx3kdljv2ml$.gojzy7luaxid$.dlg@40tude.net>
Hi Warren and all,
Many thanks for your reply, I hope you won't mind me replying as a
bulletin as I think its important that as many people as possible
understand the situation as it's obvious that you do believe what
you say although its based on complete myth.
Remember we are talking about bulletins forwarded @WW
----- Original Message -----
From: <kb2vxa%wt3v.#cnj.nj.usa.noam@gb7cip.ampr.org>
To: <g0syr@gb7cip.ampr.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: KB2VXA and forwarding
> From: KB2VXA@WT3V.#CNJ.NJ.USA.NOAM
> To : G0SYR@GB7CIP.#32.GBR.EU
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> You're trying to explain forwarding to a SYSOP? C'mon now, To put it
> simply you're explaining radio forwarding but land line is a horse of a
> different color and that's what I wrote about. Talk about misinformation,
> nothing you wrote applies to how it's done over the Internet where
> messages are forwarded to a specific IP the same as e-mail. Actually you
> touched on that without aparantly realizing it.
No Warren, forwarding by landline is done in exactly the same way as by
radio. I realise that you are a sysop with no experience of landline
forwarding but take my word as a remote sysop of a BBS with both radio and
landline ports the forwarding is done in exactly the same way over radio
and landline. The principle I'm explaining is simple and should be basic
knowledge for every sysop but that would appear not to be the case as you
are not the only sysop to make similar comments.
Each BBS that appears in the R lines works in the the same basic way.
It receives a bulletin stores it and at some time later forwards it on
to its directly connected partners.
The links between BBSs are many and varied and it makes not one jot of
difference how the connection is made, it can be
AX25, Netrom, Pactor, Winlink, Clover, PSK31, AXUDP, Telnet, NNTP, RTTY,
CW, Email, Written on piece of paper and strapped to a carrier pigeon and
typed in again at the RX end, it makes no difference, the network is
independent of the protocols used to connect the BBSs together.
Messages are forwarded between callsigns, you are muddling the nuts and
bolts of connections with the forwarding process they are totally seperate
>
> No, I'm not trying to stir up trouble at all, I merely explained in the
> simplest possible terms to one who didn't understand why messages are
> lost. "...at each hop lies the potential for another mess."
No.... my bulletin is required to be forwarded to 'every' BBS in the world
that will accept it. There is no potential for another mess at each hop as
each hop in the R lines represents another successful step in passing my
bulletin on to another BBS which is the aim of the BBS network.
Ideally it has to 'hop' to EVERY BBS in world.
>
> FYI, Internet uses real time rather than store and forward as radio does
> so "Old Father Time" really isn't a factor. That's how Internet bulls
> arrive ahead of radio ones and short circuit the radio network, but I
> have repeated that endlessly and it's always fallen on deaf ears.
No! that's not correct, internet forwarding uses store and forward
in exactly the same way as radio. In fact in the UK traffic from outside
the UK should go through a third process before forwarding, that of review,
so a message being forwarded into the UK should be checked by the sysop
of the BBS thats receiving it.
All that is different is possibly the speed of transmission. It is faster
if the both stations have a 24/7 broadband internet connections, which will
be faster than if they have a 70cm UHF 19K2 baud link which is faster than
an HF pactor link, none of that is relevent, the actual time spent
transmitting by all of the above links is usually small compared with the
delay of the BBS storing the message on its hard drive and waiting till the
next forwarding session opens up, these are the delays you see in the R
lines and it's these delays that determine the route YOU will see in your R
lines. It is true because internet linked BBSs and VHF/UHF radio linked
BBSs have links available 24/7 they don't have delays imposed by waiting
for the suitable band conditions they will probably initiate forwarding
sessions more regularly and indeed some may initiate forwarding whenever
there is something to forward as there is no real reason why they can't
poll each other for new bulletins every few minutes.
>
> I'm starting to be pedantic and pick apart your bull so please forgive
> me. I simply suggest you learn a little more before arguing with another
> sysop who learned from sysops far more experienced than I.
Thats ok Warren thats how we learn by exchanging ideas.
I'm sorry to say Warren those sysops sold you a story and you believed it,
they didn't explain to you how to interpret the R lines. You need to step
back and think about it for yourself now I've told you that the forwarding
mechanisms are the same for radio and internet.
>
> FYI, your bull was sent via Uraguay, Hungary, Japan, Germany, Czech
> Republic, back to Germany, and Switzerland before being sent via HF
> Pactor to our key node in Connecticut. Why can't the UK forward directly
> to the US in one easy hop? It would sure get here quicker and kill the
> following BID/MIDs arriving from elsewhere thus shortening the path and
> reducing the chances for errors.
No Warren my bulletin was forwarded within a few minutes of me writing it
direct to both W1NGL and WU3V. It seems to me that each country is
responsible for organising its own BBS network and once a copy of my
bulletin is deposited in the USA it's up to sysops in the USA to organise
themselves to distribute it. It may be more difficult in a large country
but many problems are of your own making caused by petty squabbles causing
your network to fragment.
All I can say is when your bulletins @WW arrive in the UK they are
distributed around all the UK BBS's that will accept them, as quickly as
possible using whatever means are available, usually within a few hours of
arrival.
The QUICKEST path to your BBS from mine is the one that YOU quoted,
as you rightly say if there WERE a quicker path then that would be the
one you would see.
All you are telling us is that there was no quicker forwarding
paths from W1NGL and WU3V to your BBS WT3V than the one you have indicated.
> via Uraguay, Hungary, Japan, Germany, Czech Republic,
> back to Germany, and Switzerland
each hop is another successful step in my bulletin's journey round the
world placing a single copy of it on every BBS that wants it.
Don't mis-understand, we would nearly all agree that if there were radio
links with sufficient capacity and reliability we would both use them and
promote their use but they are few and far between. If you were more
positive and promoted the use of the few radio links that exist for
reaching areas that don't have good comunications otherwise, you would
generate more respect than your negative posts based on completely
false ideas of how the network functions.
>
> To misquote a line from Robert Plant, "Does anyone remember radio?"
>
> 73 de Warren, KB2VXA@WT3V.#CNJ.NJ.USA.NOAM
> Powered by JCP&L atomic energy.
>
> E-MAIL: kb2vxa@swissinfo.org
>
> **************************************
> Preserve the integrity of our network.
> Stop Internet forwarding, use RADIO!
> **************************************
>
> Message timed by NIST: 02:56 on 2004-Nov-20 GMT
>
**************************************
Preserve the integrity of our network.
Use what's available to hold it together!
************************************** :-)
I hope one day Robert might make another guest appearance at Cropredy
--
73 de Bryan g0syr.ampr.org [ 44.131.244.60 ]
Amprnet mail g0syr@gb7cip.ampr.org
AX25 mail G0SYR@GB7CIP.#32.GBR.EU
Internet Mail g0syr@beeb.net
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