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PA2AGA > HDDIG 07.10.99 22:42l 177 Lines 7181 Bytes #-9727 (0) @ EU
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 13:09:55 MET
Message-Id: <hd_99_250E>
From: pa2aga
To: hd_broadcast@pa2aga
Subject: HamDigitalDigest 99/250E
X-BBS-Msg-Type: B
I suggested you TRY to use ham radio links to get a message to me.
But you have no interest in reading what I write. You think I run a BBS.
I do not. You think I don't use tcp/ip. I do. No surprise your comments
tend to be inane and silly. Seems your thinking is stuck back in the
middle 1980s. Some of us have come a long way beyond those ideas.
And some of us can still use ham radio.
--
... Hank
http://horedson.home.att.net
>.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 23:00:13 -0400
From: Gary Coffman <ke4zv@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Let's look at real numbers for TNC software sales
On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:00:48 -0700, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@att.net> wrote:
>Gary Coffman <ke4zv@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:=kzuN6vX=XrAbnM6926xUpDZCpZZ@4ax.com...
>
>> >Gary, you not paying attention.
>> >More ERP equals more power spread equals longer path.
>>
>> And more power *spread* is exactly what you want to avoid. That
>> causes more multipath reflections from more objects further from
>> the line of sight path. *You* aren't paying attention. The *last* thing
>> you want to do is spew excessive signal around the countryside.
>>
>> What you need to do is tightly focus your signal along a well
>> engineered line of sight path, and keep the power spreading down
>> to the *absolute minimum possible* to avoid generating excessive
>> ISD. For properly engineered line of sight paths, low transmitter
>> power is always sufficient. For poorly engineered paths, excessive
>> power generally won't help because the ISD, and BER, becomes
>> unacceptable.
>
>Gary, that is exactly what I said.
>"power spread":. the difference between transmit and receive
>power levels at the radio. ERP minus noise floor. Both in dbm.
Ah, we appear to have a terminology problem. What you're
describing is called * link margin*. Power spreading is dispersion
of the signal over a wide area, generally an undesirable condition
unless you're intent on broadcasting rather than linking.
>"... well engineered .." makes no sense. The paths are what they are.
>They go, for example, from my house to your house.
That's where they end up, perhaps after several intermediate relay hops.
But each hop path has to be properly engineered. That means proper siting,
proper link margin, and proper consideration of multipath issues. This isn't
Olde Tyme Radio, we don't have to make the entire trip in one hop. Digital
networks are naturally suited to automatic relay.
>This is the long haul case we are talking about. You don't *normally*
>put large dishes or large yagi arrays anywhere except on your own
>property. Way too hard to maintain if they are not local. Exceptions
>exist of course, but I've never personally encountered one.
Nor have I. With an adequate number of properly engineered relay sites,
however, there is never a need for such large antenna structures. We
negotiated permission to use the State Police's dispatch towers for
our network. That gave us access to 178 towers across the state (all
with emergency power backup too). If we ever manage to build out the
network enough to use all those sites, very simple antennas will suffice
for the individual links. We also acquired the right to use several mountain
top sites for longer hops, and to serve as switch hubs. But we certainly
don't put EME grade stations on any of them. That wouldn't be very
neighborly to the other users of the sites.
>For the long haul case, it is rare that the path is line of sight.
>Usually it is a scatter path of some nature.
>Example: the troposcatter path from the Lowell, MA area to
>Southern NJ on 2M 1200 baud. Worked quite well for us when
>we used it. KW and 4 long yagis in NJ, 200W and two long yagis
>in MA. Antennas at 170 and 120 feet above local terrain.
Incredible. I bet you were *real* popular with the other people
trying to use that segment of the band across at least 3 states.
And for nothing more than a half duplex 1200 baud link at that.
>This discussion has nothing to do with the high speed network
>discussion. I play with more than one thing in ham radio.
So do I, but I'll gladly leave the monstrous low speed troposcatter
stations to you. We could never get something like that coordinated
here. What a spectrum hog.
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it |mail to ke4zv@bellsouth.net
534 Shannon Way | We break it |
Lawrenceville, GA | Guaranteed |
>.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:18:00 -0700
From: "Cathryn Mataga" <cathryn@junglevision.com>
Subject: Let's look at real numbers for TNC software sales
Gary Coffman wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:08:41 -0700, "Hank Oredson" <horedson@att.net> wrote:
>I am involved with a ham radio digital network, pure RF, packet
>switched, 56 kb, serving parts of 4 states. I am not involved with
>BBS applications running over any amateur radio network. I haven't
>even seen a BBS on the air here in about a decade. (There may
>be something down on 1200 baud, but I don't have anything that
>slow anymore.)
>
>That you seem to think that the only ham radio network revolves
>around servicing BBS applications is an indication of how far out
>of touch you seem to be with current realities.
Err, what would have to happen, maybe, is some kind of effort to
make the US Government, or whoever makes these decisions.
What is it? the parks department or the bureau of land management
friendly to ham radio nodes, I guess.
This is just speculation, but maybe we could stick smoke
detectors or something in these nodes, and offer some kind
of service to them, that is checking for fires or something. Ham radio
is a public service thing, and maybe we could claim that ham radio
digital nodes are a public good, and a legitimate use of these lands.
Really, I'm not even sure who you talk to to try to do this kind of thing.
Is there like a standard way to propose a use for this kind of property,
that has a prayer of actually happening? I'm a computer programmer,
I don't know about these kinds of things. It sounds like from your
other messages, Hank, you actually tried to get sites on government
land and failed. So, I assume you've probably already been there
done that on this.
Are any parts of the Grapes network on government land, and how
was the deal setup for that? In states like Oregon, the government
owns, more or less, basically all of the countryside, I assume.
>.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 22:20:24 -0700
From: "Hank Oredson" <horedson@att.net>
Subject: Let's look at real numbers for TNC software sales
Gary Coffman <ke4zv@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xw34NxHJf+EF064afvXkDcnPO0tB@4ax.com...
> >Gary, that is exactly what I said.
To be continued in digest: hd_99_250F
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