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ZL3AI > APRDIG 06.02.07 22:05l 311 Lines 13820 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Good 30m Reference? (Bob Bruninga )
2. VA3FES-14 (Andreas Junge)
3. Re: Good 30m Reference? (Joel Maslak)
4. Re: VA3FES-14 (Joel Maslak)
5. Re: Good 30m Reference? (Stephen H. Smith)
6. Re: Good 30m Reference? (Bob Bruninga )
7. Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming (Mark Fellhauer)
8. Re: Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming (Rich Mulvey)
9. RE: Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming (Danny Messano)
10. RE: Good 30m Reference? (Robert Bruninga)
11. FW: reading aprs path question (Robert Bruninga)
12. Re: Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming (Gregg Wonderly)
13. Re: FW: reading aprs path question (Curt, WE7U)
14. Re: Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming
(J. Gary Bender, WS5N)
15. solar powered digi/wx (Peter Maxfield)
16. Re: Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming
(Charles E. LaMonte)
17. Re: solar powered digi/wx (Mullen)
18. Re: solar powered digi/wx (Andrzej AB9FX)
19. Re: Windows US Daylight Time Change Screwup Looming (Mark Fellhauer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:14:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bob Bruninga " <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Good 30m Reference?
>...what HF path and beacon rate should I use while mobile
>(using a 100W radio into a hamstick, won't be beaconing
>while parked or, typically, while within VHF coverage)?
>I want to see the position get out to the internet system.
You are correct that many HF recommendations are wrong and do not help the
network while helping the user. But the answer is simple and was always
the same, going back to the original APRS HF operation in 1993. (except for
updating to GATE,WIDE1-1 instead of GATE,WIDE.
Beacon once every 10 minutes while mobile using the path of UNPROTO APRS
VIA GATE,WIDE1-1. This makes sure that your packet will be received by
every APRS Gateway in the country (depending on propagation) and that your
packet will go through the gateway to local VHF where it will go one more
hop via any surrounding VHF digipeater.
Once going through all those GATES and VHF digipeaters, then there is an
almost certainty that your packet will be seen by an IGate somwehre.
The WORST recommendations suggest using the path of VIA ECHO... This is
just crazy. HF needs no digipeating, since that is what the IONOSPHERE is
for. Adding ECHO just guarantees QRM and a 50% reduction in channel
capacity at the expense of EVERYONE for the ego of the few. This is the
classic "tragedy of the commons" that dooms free-public-resources. Read
about it on the fix14439.html web page.
Anyway, it is great to hear of interest in HF. APRS has been on HF since
1992 and works very well. The 10 minute recommendation was for boats that
were underway 24 hours a day. We found that we had good data most of the
time that the sun was up. Very poor data from midnight to sunrise.
If you are mobile on short trips, then maybe 5 minutes would be appropriate
for shorter trips, but for truckers and 8 hour drivers, 10 minutes would
seem the best. HF is for long haul RF and for long haul travelers where
exact precise position is not important, but general position periodically
is the goal. Since back then, everyone was running APRSdos which
dead-reckons positions on display anyway, the boats or truckers progress
was well estimated between infrequent reports.
So for a smoother representation of progress on a long trip, then monitor
the trip with an APRS client that dead-reckons its display if the general
intent is progress along a long haul route.
Bob, WB4APR
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:06:24 -0800
From: Andreas Junge <aprs_at_n6nu.org>
Subject: [aprssig] VA3FES-14
I saw VA3FES-14 using a WIDE3-3 beaconing in 10s intervals taking over
almost the whole channel. I thought I'll let him know.
Here is the conversation;
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/msg.cgi?call=N6NU-15
N6NU-15 Hi OM, your packet rate is WAY to high{52}
VA3FES-14 HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? WHAT IS IT TO YOU?{41
VA3FES-14 Funny part is you send a msg from a station not on the map!{42
VA3FES-14 your opinion has been noted. doubt I'll do anything{44
VA3FES-14 about it though! 73{45
Nice going. That's the ham spirit. EOM.
Andreas, N6NU
PS:
Want to read more : http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/msg.cgi?call=VA3FES-14
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:20:56 -0700
From: Joel Maslak <jmaslak-aprs_at_antelope.net>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Good 30m Reference?
On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>You are correct that many HF recommendations are wrong and do not
>help the network while helping the user. But the answer is simple
>and was always the same, going back to the original APRS HF
>operation in 1993. (except for updating to GATE,WIDE1-1 instead of
>GATE,WIDE.
Wouldn't GATE,WIDE2-1 be preferable? I'm assuming the vast majority of
people who can put up decent fixed 30m antennas and gear should have no
problem putting up a 2m antenna that can hit a decent digi.
>Anyway, it is great to hear of interest in HF. APRS has been on HF
>since 1992 and works very well. The 10 minute recommendation was
>for boats that were underway 24 hours a day. We found that we had
>good data most of the time that the sun was up. Very poor data
>from midnight to sunrise.
I'll be on the road mostly during the day, so this is perfect.
I'm still relatively new to HF, and am learning what works and what
doesn't, hence the reason I thought I'd ask before just implementing
things. :)
Speaking of implementing things, I'm thinking of adding a "mute" switch to
the IC-706 stock microphone - has anyone already done that? I imagine all
I have to do is add a super small toggle switch in line with the microphone
element. (my stock mic plugs into the 706 head in my installation, but the
tracker will plug into the 706 main unit, so I need a way of muting things
to stay legal - and I don't like the idea of unplugging the mic every time
I want to use APRS.)
>If you are mobile on short trips, then maybe 5 minutes would be
>appropriate for shorter trips, but for truckers and 8 hour drivers,
>10 minutes would seem the best. HF is for long haul RF and for
>long haul travelers where exact precise position is not important,
>but general position periodically is the goal. Since back then,
>everyone was running APRSdos which dead-reckons positions on
>display anyway, the boats or truckers progress was well estimated
>between infrequent reports.
Within 10 miles or so is plenty accurate for me, to be honest I don't care
about it being super accurate with or without dead reckoning - the main
thing I plan on using this for is to let friends and family know where I am
on the various trips I take. Typically answers like "Somewhere within an
hour of Chicago" is plenty accurate for that. (I also have successfully
used it to get a few non-hams interested in becoming hams - including one
that's studying for his technician exam right now) I also know that some
people involved with emergency response in my state are frequent watchers
of where my car is on Findu - nearly everyone that watches my car can see
some obvious emergency uses of the technology, especially when they learn
it doesn't depend on Wyoming's very limited telecommunications
infrastructure (most of the state - probably about 70,000 or so square
miles of it anyhow - were cut off from 911, long distance, internet, and
cellular service recently because a fiber loop got cut in two places near
the southeast corner of the state; people begin to understand how
vulnerable cell phones are when a fiber cut 250 miles away keeps you from
calling your wife who is 2 miles away).
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:30:31 -0700
From: Joel Maslak <jmaslak-aprs_at_antelope.net>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] VA3FES-14
On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Andreas Junge wrote:
>Nice going. That's the ham spirit. EOM.
I'm really thinking that maybe a question they left off ham exams,
world-wide, that shouldn't have been left off is something like:
Another ham tells you that your [deviation/frequency/audio/noiselevel/etc]
is not correct. Your response is:
A) Deny it
B) Ignore it
C) Cuss them out for minding your business
D) Investigate it to see if there is any merit in what they are saying
I've given up giving accurate signal reports or information about bad
signals to the owner of the signals. Too often saying to someone, for
instance, "By the way, there looks like there is a really strong background
tone when you transmit at about 500 hz" is taken to be a personal insult.
Others probably feel the same, which is probably why it's so hard to get an
accurate signal report on the air.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:12:37 -0800
From: "Stephen H. Smith" <wa8lmf2_at_aol.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Good 30m Reference?
jmaslak-aprs_at_antelope.net wrote:
>On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>
>>You are correct that many HF recommendations are wrong and do not
>>help the network while helping the user. But the answer is simple
>>and was always the same, going back to the original APRS HF operation
>>in 1993. (except for updating to GATE,WIDE1-1 instead of GATE,WIDE.
>
>Wouldn't GATE,WIDE2-1 be preferable? I'm assuming the vast majority
>of people who can put up decent fixed 30m antennas and gear should
>have no problem putting up a 2m antenna that can hit a decent digi.
>
>I'll be on the road mostly during the day, so this is perfect.
The greatest DX of all occurs via "grey line" propagation; i.e. when it is
twilight (sunrise or sunset) somewhere between where you are and where the
other end is. Here on the west coast in Los Angeles, I routinely hear
stations from the midwest and Florida in the late afternoon Pacific time
(when it is already after sunset on the east coast) and just before sunrise
Pacific (when it is already daylight in the east).
Once as an experiment, I beaconed from my car parked outside my office in
East Los Angeles from noon to about 5:00 PM in November (where local sunset
was at about 4:50). This was done with an FT00 and it's matching
ATAS-100 mini-screwdriver antenna; i.e. not a high-performance antenna on
30M. I then repeatedly hit findu to see what station had gated me to the
Internet and where they were located. Over the span of 6 hours the
sequence of entry points was:
San Diego, Bakersfield, Salt Lake City, Boise, Denver, Omaha,
Saint Louis, Chicago and then back to Denver and Salt Lake City.
You can watch the daily variation of HF propagation on my UIview APRS
webserver at:
This is 30M monitored live off-the-air 24/7 in Pasadena, CA with a
horizontal dipole made of two 30M Hamsticks about 15 feet off the ground
broadsiding the northeast. Bear in mind that I have an absolutely HORRIBLE
noise level here (leaky digital cable TV trunk at the back of my yard that
generates a continuous broadband S9 white noise level across all of the HF
spectrum. ) that severely limits what I hear. As soon as I get away from
my own neighborhood, I can hear about 5 times the activity from my mobile!]
>Speaking of implementing things, I'm thinking of adding a "mute"
>switch to the IC-706 stock microphone - has anyone already done that?
>I imagine all I have to do is add a super small toggle switch in line
>with the microphone element. (my stock mic plugs into the 706 head in
>my installation, but the tracker will plug into the 706 main unit, so
>I need a way of muting things to stay legal - and I don't like the
>idea of unplugging the mic every time I want to use APRS.)
I assume you are feeding the tracker into the rear-panel 6-pin Mini-DIN
"data" connector (the perfect place to do it since you get audio in, PTT
and a receiver squelch indicator that can hold off transmit if the
channel is busy). If so, I don't think you need to mess with the
mic. On most radios that have the 6-pin Mini-DIN connector, asserting
PTT from this connector automatically mutes the front panel mic input to
avoid exactly this problem. Details on the Mini-DIN connector's
functions are here:
Look for the file MiniDIN6-Packet.pdf
Actually, a more important issue for HF packet/APRS is frequency accuracy
and stability. Like anything transmitted via SSB, the pitch of the
recovered audio (i.e. packet tones) is affected Hz for Hz by frequency
setting errors on the transmitting or receiving radios (unlike VHF FM
where the PITCH of recovered tones IS NOT affected by RF frequency errors).
The audio tone detection filters of the receiving TNC on the 200Hz-shift
300baud packet used by HF APRS are EXTREMELY narrow.
You must be able to set (and keep) your radio to within 20 Hz or so of the
correct frequency long term for reliable results. Especially with a dumb
tracker, you are setting your frequency and transmitting "in the blind"
with no way to confirm you are "on-channel" by receiving other stations.
A radio with a TCXO high-stabilty master frequency standard is almost
essential for successful HF operation.
--
Stephen H. Smith wa8lmf (at) aol.com
EchoLink Node: 14400 [Think bottom of the 2M band]
Home Page: http://wa8lmf.com --OR-- http://wa8lmf.net
NEW! TNC Test CD
http://wa8lmf.net/TNCtest
JavAPRS Filter Port 14580 Guide
http://wa8lmf.net/aprs/JAVaprsFilters.htm
"APRS 101" Explanation of APRS Path Selection & Digipeating
http://wa8lmf.net/DigiPaths
Updated "Rev G" APRS http://wa8lmf.net/aprs
Symbols Set for UI-View,
UIpoint and APRSplus:
------------------------------
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