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ZL3AI > APRDIG 26.10.06 07:02l 242 Lines 9485 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: [APRSSIG] Vol 28 #9, 1/4
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Sent: 061026/0532Z @:ZL2BAU.#87.NZL.OC #:11317 [Waimate] $:8870-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL2BAU.#87.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. RE: GPS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
2. 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (David Dobbins)
3. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Steve Dimse)
4. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Chuck Gooden)
5. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (James)
6. RE: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
7. RE: GPS (James Smith)
8. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (wa7nwp_at_jnos.org)
9. RE: GPS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
10. RE: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
11. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Chuck Gooden)
12. RE: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
13. Re: D7 and ITEM (Christopher A. Kantarjiev)
14. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Earl Needham)
15. RE: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (scott_at_opentrac.org)
16. Re: D7 and ITEM (Curt Mills)
17. RE: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Earl Needham)
18. Re: D7 and ITEM (Bob Bruninga )
19. Re: Re: D7 and ITEM (Bob Bruninga )
20. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Bob Bruninga )
21. ARISS (John Mc Hugh)
22. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Gregg Wonderly)
23. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Joel Maslak)
24. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Stephen H. Smith)
25. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (Steve Dimse)
26. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (VE7GDH)
27. Re: 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS (VE7GDH)
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 12:22:52 -0700
From: "David Dobbins" <ddobbins_at_gmail.com>
Subject: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
nwaprssig" <nwaprssig_at_nwaprs.info>
I'm posting this to both the APRSSIG and NWAPRSSIG:
I wish the FCC would come along and declare the future of APRS will be on
440 at 9600 baud, much like they (finally) told the TV broadcasters to
transition to HDTV by year whatever. HDTV brings a whole new level of
enjoyment to TV viewing. If you have HDTV, you know what I mean.
Unfortunately that will NEVER likely happen with APRS, and the transition
to 9600 baud UHF APRS will take years beyond what it should. Ideally we
should have started out the infrastructure on 9600 baud back in '91-92 when
the initial growth began. But even I couldn't afford the cost of the 9600
baud equipment back then. I got in on the bandwagon about one year after
the introduction, and used to dial up the BBS for yet another version of
APRSdos every two weeks or so. Remember that, you old fogies??
That's different now, and I think we all need to make a paradigm shift in
our thinking about the future of APRS around the world. We should not
encourage (is a better word "discourage"?) further development at the 1200
baud level on VHF, but rather start the transition now by committing our
growth to the UHF band and at 9600 baud, with a goal of completing the
transition by 2012.
Manufacturers should support this by focusing their product development,
and lower their costs of 9600 baud equipment. A KPC-9+ UHF only TNC would
be great, for about $150, while the KPC-9612+ at $250, not $380, would be
equally vundervas!. 9600 baud-capable mobile data radios should cost $150
like their 1200 baud counterparts (Icom IC-2100 VHF = IC-4100/4200 UHF)
The new gizmos should all support 9600 baud. Some do, some don't. Yeah for
the guys who are supporting high(er) speed packet. What's wrong with the
rest of you?
A common worldwide UHF freq, or maybe two freqs, would also help, and those
bodies governing those freqs should help make things happen, rather than
hinder the development.
The next generation of APRS satellites should be 9600 baud only. There'd be
plenty of QSO time for everyone.
And, along the same lines, we shouldn't wasting our time deveoping and/or
supporting 1200 baud VHF WinLink. WinLink is one of the coolest projects to
come around since sliced (cinnamon-raisin) bread, but we could be
supporting so much more data at the 9600 baud level. Why not take the
position of "Hey if you want to play Winlink on the non-HF side, we can be
found on 9600 baud UHF".
Were these issues taken up at the recent DCC? Maybe I'm just spitting in
the wind? But it could be worse..... we could just stay on VHF and 1200
baud forever, and not make any improvements. If that's OK with you, so be
it. I say let's keep moving forward with all the facets of the hobby, not
just part of it.
David K7GPS
--
David Dobbins
Medical Lake, WA
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:52:41 -0400
From: Steve Dimse <steve_at_dimse.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
On Oct 8, 2006, at 3:22 PM, David Dobbins wrote:
>Unfortunately that will NEVER likely happen with APRS, and the
>transition to 9600 baud UHF APRS will take years beyond what it
>should.
Unfortunately UHF 9600 baud AX-25 is not eight times more speed for a
little more money. There are serious problems with it, things like
increased path loss and multipath. Deviation setup is critical so it does
not lend itself to the modern appliance operator ham. Finally, throughput
is far less than an eight-fold increase when considering short messages
like APRS uses.
A lot of money to build a new infrastructure for maybe twice the bandwidth.
In my opinion worldwide APRS never will transition to UHF 9600 baud, and
never should. There are situations where it may be worthwhile for local
areas to use it as a supplement, but I don't see that it could ever become
the primary mode of APRS.
Steve K4HG
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:45:08 -0500
From: Chuck Gooden <cgooden_at_insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
Personally, I rather would not have the FCC declare anything of the sort.
This would be akin to their decision to give away the 220 Mhz band and it
would kill APRS and possibly Amateur radio. The FCC decision to mandate
HDTV broadcasting by 2009 only forced the TV stations to purchase new
equipment and is forcing consumer to purchase new tv's too and for what?
All I see on TV is a bunch of crap. The gov't had to mandate the V-Chip
so parents would have some control over the crap their kids can watch.
In the not too distant future you will be able to download any movie via
the Internet and all of the funds to purchase new HDTV's and broadcasting
equipment will go to waste. Don't believe me, Verizon is rolling out
optical connection to residences in some selected cities now. I would
gladly pay for an optical connection to the Internet.
David Dobbins wrote:
>I wish the FCC would come along and declare the future of APRS will be
>on 440 at 9600 baud, much like they (finally) told the TV broadcasters
>to transition to HDTV by year whatever. HDTV brings a whole new level
>of enjoyment to TV viewing. If you have HDTV, you know what I mean.
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 13:54:42 -0700
From: "James" <kb7tbt_at_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
>Don't believe me, Verizon is
>rolling out optical connection to residences in some selected cities now.
>I would gladly pay for an optical connection to the Internet.
You may not have to pay as much as you think, 10mb/s up/down is 40 to 50 a
month with verizon optical the last time i checked it.
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 14:44:43 -0700
From: <scott_at_opentrac.org>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
Steve's right. Just cranking up the baud rate is NOT the way to improve
APRS. Even implementing a simple slotted ALOHA scheme would double channel
capacity for APRS. And if you're going to require all new infrastructure,
better to do it right with better channel access control, forward error
correction, a more compact packet structure, and standards for maximum TX
delay.
The AK-47 didn't get to be the world's most popular assault rifle by being
the most accurate, the most deadly, or the fastest firing. Rather, it's
been that successful because it's cheap, simple to operate, and it gets the
job done while being very forgiving of mistreatment. The same is true of
APRS on 1200 baud AFSK. Many, many APRS users would have never gotten into
it if they hadn't been able to use any old FM voice rig. Most won't follow
it to 440 if it means buying expensive new equipment that doesn't give any
clear benefit.
Scott
N1VG
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:22:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: wa7nwp_at_jnos.org
Subject: Re: [aprssig] 9600b UHF APRS IS THE FUTURE OF APRS
>Don't believe me, Verizon is
>>rolling out optical connection to residences in some selected cities
>>now.
>>I would gladly pay for an optical connection to the Internet.
The future (high speed or otherwise) of APRS is...
(drum roll)
.. the cell phone.
No endless discussions about paths.
No silly restrictions on encryption or message sizes.
No concerns about aloha circles or over deviation.
No gnashing of teeth over too frequent position reporting.
It's happening as we watch. We saw it on here this week.
73
Bill - WA7NWP
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