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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.09.06 02:11l 222 Lines 10648 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: [APRSSIG] Vol 27 #18, 3/4
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From: ZL3AI@ZL2BAU.#87.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:20:16 -0400
From: Rich Mulvey <aprs_at_mulveyfamily.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>Jim Lux wrote:
>>Gregg makes some comments about the availability of software for a
>>variety of environments, and that triggers some comments about
>>software development, not necessarily directed at Gregg personally,
>>but at a general misunderstanding of how and why software gets
>>developed.
>
>Hi Jim, I guess I stirred up some emotions. Without going after every
>point that you enumerated in your response, let me just say that I've
>been developing software in a number of environments over the past 20+
>years. I have a masters degree in software development focused in
>areas of operating systems and computer language development. I've
>developed windows software, unix software extensively, and 10 years
>ago started using Java for all of my core application development.
>So, I have some experience to draw on for my opinions.
>
>If you will search on the internet for "gregg wonderly java jini
>software" you will find that I have about 10 open source projects
>visible in the communities related to my interests. These projects,
>include a complete replacement for Echolink, written in Java, which
>runs, without ANY porting needed on windows, linux and mac os-x.
>Because Java provides a nice abstraction to the sound system, I don't
>have to know about how that works. Because Java provides a "look and
>feel" abstraction, the OSes native graphics subsystem is abstracted
>for me and all the font sizing, spacing and layout is taken care of
>for me.
>
>When I started openlink, I had some free moments. When I got GUI done
>after a couple of weeks of spare time work, I started looking around
>for PSK-31 libraries to copy by translating to Java. As I said,
>unfortunately, these libraries are optimized with ASM code, or are
>otherwise tied into a particular environment.
>
>On any of the existing OSes that are in consumer computers, you will
>always have scheduling pauses related to timesharing of the CPU. Your
>comments about the speed of Java seem to be based on old experience or
>some third party comments. I have large scale production systems
>running on Java with massive throughput and not problems with
>performance. The Sun Just In Time (JIT) compiler can typically equal
>or better many C and C++ compilers of the same algorithms because of
>the depth of analysis and the fact that they compile with runtime
>knowledge about the actual execution paths and frequency of passes
>through the code.
I have to second this. I develop large-scale corporate Java systems that
do everything from traditional card walloping business applications to
extremely compute-intensive image manipulation tools, and they are often
superior to the corresponding C/C++ applications in both development time
and execution speed. One example: We had a C application that would take
a TIFF image, analyze it, determine where there was text on a page and
where halftones were located - even halftones that were completely overlaid
on the text and irregular in size - and then break the page into two files
- one that contains just the underlying text, and the other that contains
just the halftone images. This is about as intensive an app as you're
likely to find in a corporate environment. The Java app was as close to a
1-1 source translation of the C code as was possible. On the average, it
runs about 1.5x faster on JDK 1.5 as it does on the latest version of the
GNU C compiler on Solaris and Linux boxes. I can't wait to see how fast it
runs when we actually optimize it. ;-)
>I stick by my comments that there is no reason that Amatuer radio
>software should not be being developed as cross platform.
Now, on this I have to disagree, at least when it comes to certain Java
applications. Deploying Java apps to the end-user can be a total PITA.
WebStart systems are one way - but IME a lot of users are so far behind the
technology curve that they don't have browsers set up for it. I've found
that even having a web page with direct links to a JRE, and telling them
"Download this, run it, and you'll be ready to go" is an exercise best
suited for a masochist. My experience with free cross-platform Java
application packager/installers is that they haven't tended to work
particularly well, though, admittedly, the last time I surveyed them was
about two years ago.
The biggest issue that I've run into is the problem with Sun's abandonment
of the javax.comm/serial/parallel port support for Windows. Most of the
Amateur Radio apps I've run into need some sort of rig control, and with
Sun bailing on comm support for the largest installed base of machines,
that becomes a problem. Yes, there's rxtx and a couple of commercial
implementations. RXTX is pretty good, and has gotten much better over
time, but I still run into the occasional problem with it.
But that just underscores some of the many development hurdles to
cross-platform apps. With the majority of Windows development systems, you
essentially get one-stop shopping for everything from the presentation
layer to hardware interfaces. With Java it's more a case of "Get something
from HERE, and then something from THERE, and then something else from OVER
THERE - and then we can build a useful tool" - and that's something that
many of the people developing open source applications just aren't willing
to deal with.
- Rich
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:21:43 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: [aprssig] APRS Link
It is important to note that the APRSlink system was Designed to allow a
D700 or D7 HT user to send and Receive his WinLink or regular Email using
only the Radio and not even need a PC. This is not immediately Obvious on
the APRSlink web page.
If someone has a PC, then usually they would log onto a TELPAC node
directly to Read their mail. So the Real advantage of APRSlink is being
able to send/rx Email using only the D7/D700 radio front panel if you are
in A remote situation and need this capability. Think Emergency
preparedness....
De WB4APR
>APRSLink provides a link between the Automatic Position
>Reporting System (APRS) and the Winlink 2000 Radio e-mail
>system. APRSLink allows APRS users to:
>
>* read short e-mail messages sent to their
>callsign_at_winlink.org account
>* send short e-mail messages to any valid e-mail address
>or Winlink 2000 user
>* perform e-mail related maintenance (see commands below)
>* be notified of pending Winlink e-mail via APRS message
>* query APRSLink for information of the closest Winlink
>interface (Telpac gateway or PMBO)
>
>For more info check out: http://www.winlink.org/aprslink.htm
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:42:48 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: [aprssig] RE: APRS spec designating nodes
>Bob, would you please consider adding one more item to the
>APRS Node list, designating the use of a Kenwood D700 as a
>digipeater, which we're doing here in NWAPRS as part of our
>growing 9600 baud UHF APRS on 440.875.
Yes, I added APNK01 for the version APK101. This allows for Future
versions.
By the way, I guess everyone has heard that Kenwood was showing A new radio
(mockup) at DCC this weekend which would have APRS... In a year or so....
De Wb4APR
David, please confirm you see this also on the APRSSIG. I do not understand
the APRSSIGBOUNCES and am not sure If that means tht my posts are beiing
BOUNCED or are Being posted and that is some kind of new address?
Bob
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:03:09 +0200
From: Gregg Wonderly <gregg_at_wonderly.org>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
Rich Mulvey wrote:
>Now, on this I have to disagree, at least when it comes to certain
>Java applications. Deploying Java apps to the end-user can be a total
>PITA. WebStart systems are one way - but IME a lot of users are so far
>behind the technology curve that they don't have browsers set up for
>it. I've found that even having a web page with direct links to a JRE,
>and telling them "Download this, run it, and you'll be ready to go" is
>an exercise best suited for a masochist. My experience with free
>cross-platform Java application packager/installers is that they haven't
>tended to work particularly well, though, admittedly, the last time I
>surveyed them was about two years ago.
Hi Rich, thanks for jumping in and sharing your perspective. I tend to
just build jars, and point people at the JRE to download. If I can't
distribute with just these two steps, to get people going, I do something
different, like make my jar application do some of the installation when
launched. It is possible to do things fairly seemlessly. More and more
PCs shipped with windows, are also shipped with a JRE. But, downloading
the 1.5 JRE, is still often required.
>The biggest issue that I've run into is the problem with Sun's
>abandonment of the javax.comm/serial/parallel port support for Windows.
>Most of the Amateur Radio apps I've run into need some sort of rig
>control, and with Sun bailing on comm support for the largest installed
>base of machines, that becomes a problem. Yes, there's rxtx and a
>couple of commercial implementations. RXTX is pretty good, and has
>gotten much better over time, but I still run into the occasional
>problem with it.
I have a copy of the 2.x version of the windows COMM api. I use it for my
applications and have tried to maintain a constant push on Sun, through
emails, to put that entire version back on the web.
>But that just underscores some of the many development hurdles to
>cross-platform apps. With the majority of Windows development systems,
>you essentially get one-stop shopping for everything from the
>presentation layer to hardware interfaces. With Java it's more a case
>of "Get something from HERE, and then something from THERE, and then
>something else from OVER THERE - and then we can build a useful tool" -
>and that's something that many of the people developing open source
>applications just aren't willing to deal with.
The comm api is a hurdle. I think that is a smaller hurdle than running VB
on a linux machine. I've been using the windows 2.x Sun implementation for
years. I've used rxtx on linux for years. I need to spend some time
looking at rxtx for windows.
Gregg Wonderly
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