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PA2AGA > TCPDIG 27.02.97 14:27l 202 Lines 7946 Bytes #-10707 (0) @ EU
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Subj: TCP-Group Digest 97/24C
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 97 08:03:28 MET
Message-Id: <tcp_97_24C>
From: pa2aga
To: tcp_broadcast@pa2aga-1
Subject: TCP-Group Digest 97/24C
X-BBS-Msg-Type: B
relatively
> low latency and low-loss links would work well in a relatively lossy,
> RF-based collision domain. Yet that's the "standard" that we've ended up
> with today: AX.25.
>
A background in landline networking protocol.
If you know a better system which uses RADIOS and has some basic
practicality, then by all means trot it out. I'll be glad to support an
effort along those lines.
I suspect though, that you have nothing to offer but more whining,
complaining, and hot air. This is what we have come to expect from computer
weenies, because this is what we have gotten from them over the years.
Start a new trend! --- CONTRIBUTE something TANGIBLE and REAL.
Something which uses RADIOS, not the telephone.
If you can't do that, then I'd say that your "expertise" is pretty useless
for ham radio.
>
> > When I see "experimentors" make a worthwhile contribution to the
amateur
> > radio network, I'll be impressed.
>
> I cannot understand how you can denigrate Phil Karn based upon his
> consideriable worthwhile contribution and still make that statement. I
> suppose it's because you just don't agree with his opinion, and that it's
> at add with the purity of the future you'd like to see.
>
I quoted Phil Karn verbatim. If he was denigrated, he denigrated himself.
> > Most of the current crop are no better than Greg Jones of TAPR, who
wants
> > to turn amateur packet radio into a parasitic infestation of the
Internet,
> > or Phil Karn who says that all that has been accomplished by hams with
> > amateur packet radio is "a waste of spectrum". We don't need people
like
> > that in amateur packet radio. We need people who care about amateur
radio
> > and their fellow hams. We need people who are impressed with what can
be
> > done WITH RADIOS, not with what the commercial telecommunications
outfits
> > can offer.
> > We DON'T need another crop of self-styled "networking experts" who
respond
> > to the challenge of amateur radio by insisting on using the telephone
> > instead.
>
> Feel free to go ahead an implement then. Build radios. Write software.
> Knock yourself out; you clearly don't need help offered from others with
> expertise you might be able to use.
Display a useful level of expertise which has direct relevence to amateur
radio, and your help will be greatly appreciated.
Try to turn the amateur packet radio net into a third-rate imitation of
Internet while destroying it's viability as an RF net by replacing radio
links with telephone links, and you will only be appreciated by the
commercial communications outfits who would LOVE to grab more of ham
radio's spectrum.
Hams will (quite properly) think you are no better than any other vandal or
spoiler.
When the no-code ticket was crammed down ham radio's throat, we heard a lot
about how all these "networking experts" and "computer weenies" were going
to help us move on to a better future for amateur packet radio. They
didn't.
What they did (and do) is run down or attempt to destroy anything they are
too stupid or lazy to improve, and that has worked out to be almost
everything.. This is a natural extension of the "hacker mentality" which
has given us so many wonderful computer viruses.
Internet gateways are just another hacker's tool - One specifically
designed to effect the destruction of the amateur radio digital network.
It's the global ham digital net's equivalent to a computer virus.
73 DE Charles Brabham, N5PVL
Packet Radio : N5PVL @ N5PVL.#NTX.TX.USA.NOAM
E-Mail : n5pvl@texoma.com
Web : http://www.texoma.com/~n5pvl
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:23:13 -0500
From: "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@UU.NET>
Subject: Benefits of AMPR IP encapsulation gateways.
My last comment:
There's more to Amateur Packet Radio than the radio hardware. There's
considerable work which could be done on protocols and applications
and related software development. I hardly believe that the only
problem left to solve is the RF part.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:33:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "James C. Mankin" <n5x@email.psu.edu>
Subject: Benefits of AMPR IP encapsulation gateways.
In message Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:20:01 -0600,
"Charles Brabham" <n5pvl@texoma.net> writes:
>
>
> You can explain to the ASMA how packet/internet gateways cause grievous
> damage to the existing amateur radio network, and destroy the motivation
> to build new RF links.
>
> Show then a map of the global amateur radio forwarding network, indicating
> the large gaps which have appeared in this network as packet/internet
> gateways have come into use.
>
Gee, I though large gaps have appeared in the amateur forwarding network
because technology has passed it by.. kind of like the large gaps that
have appeared in BitNet :=) Jim KB3KJ n5x@psu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:05:11 +1100
From: Terry Dawson <terry@perf.no.itg.telstra.com.au>
Subject: Benefits of AMPR IP encapsulation gateways.
Charles Brabham wrote:
> Show then a map of the global amateur radio forwarding network, indicating
> the large gaps which have appeared in this network as packet/internet
> gateways have come into use.
The 'forwarding' network. Shit. I'd be ashamed to. Your idea of a useful
network doesn't match that of mine.
> Finally, Terry, be sure to quote the legal reasoning utilized in countries
> which outlaw packet/internet gates altogether, and point out how THEIR part
> of the global ham RF net is flourishing and growing, as compared to the
> degraded integrity of the long-haul amateur radio digital net where
> gateways have been allowed to proliferate.
> -- That includes Australia, of course. --
Firstly, since you raised the matter, find me a country that does
specifically 'outlaw' Internet connected gateways, and then you
get a legal interpretation of that legislation from a lawyer in
that country and offer that before you invite me to play bush lawyer.
Clearly you don't know what you are talking about.
The original stated intention of the encapsulation gateways was to
interconnect the disparate amateur radio groups around the world to
encourage communication and development of amateur radio technology.
If you think that this hasn't occurred then you didn't track the
development of NOS and many other common amateur radio software
developments very closely.
If you think that the proliferation of encapsulation gateways in this
country has harmed amateur packet radio them you've obviously been
talking
to someone from the BBS forwarding crowd who've lost their wank status
in the community.
The growth in use of tcp/ip in the major cities in Australia has been
phenomonal since the gateways were introduced. If you think having a
community of amateur operators who are versed in a range of packet
protocols
is a poor thing then you will think this a bad thing.
NetRom, Rose and AX.25 radio based networks have an added incentive to
be built, and are slowly being built to allow the many regionally based
amateur radio operators to gain access to the gateways and therefore the
fun of services such as convers.
People are finally beginning to upgrade from 1200bps to higher modem
rates
to make even greater use of the gateway facilities and therefore the
other packet radio facilities.
To be continued in digest: tcp_97_24D
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