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ZL3AI > APRDIG 10.03.03 16:37l 244 Lines 9106 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: Bob Nielsen <nielsen@oz.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:21:27 -0800
X-Message-Number: 12
My only comment on this subject:
"The government is best which governs the least because people
discipline themselves."
--Thomas Jefferson
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Subject: Re: Kenwood redefines Warranty
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:32:43 -0600
X-Message-Number: 13
At 10:23 AM 3/5/2003, Jeff King wrote:
>... Even if the D700 has a poor design for end user
>updates, I don't think they could have gotten around 15.121 since it has a
>wideband receiver (however such is not the case on the TH-D7x). They would
>have had to demonstrate to the FCC the synthizer could not be reprogrammed
>for the cell phone bands. Easy when a rig only covers 2meters and 440, a bit
>harder when it covers DC to light.
ECPA doesn't just cover 800 MHz plus frequencies.
Although you named a few Ten-Tec receivers that can be user updatable, you
have not named any transceivers (of the same vintage as the D700) made by
Icom or Yaesu that offer this feature. In fact, in my personal experience,
Yaesu offered to update the firmware in one of my HT's (and FT-8500) at "no
cost", provided I pay shipping both ways - but I was required to send it
to their California facility (I have the programming cables for both). A
young women in a Ham Club I belong to sent in her Icom HT for a firmware
update (which I believe she paid for).
So to single out Kenwood for "poor design for end user updates" is really
nit-picking, since Icom and Yaesu (it's two closest competitors) do the
same thing. And in cases where the firmware doesn't address warranty
issues - both Yaesu and Icom charge for the service. On my FT-51R they
offered to update the firmware for free, becuase there was a BUG in the
step-scan feature. But on my FT-8500, if I just wanted the firmware
upgrade, I would've had to pay for it. I will say that when I sent my
FT-8500 in for non-warranty service I believe they did do a firmware update
at no additional cost.
In the case of the D700 - I don't think it's a warranty issue, as the
update (is alleged) to only deal with third party compatibility
issues. AFAIC, a manufacturer is only required to go through so much due
dilligence and can not test for compatibility on hardware that does not yet
exist. Even if there was a revised NMEA spec when the D700 was being
designed, it had not been adopted by any manufacturer. I can rattle off
the names of a dozen companies that have been burned by designing a product
to a "draft" spec only to have the final roll-out in the "wild" be
significantly different. VESA Video, X2/Flex Modems, v.92 modems, and the
whole 802.11x fiasco. Heck there are number of wireless products being
sold now that have the suffix of "DRAFT" on them... Fortunately, most of
these issues could be addressed with a field firmware update, but in some
cases hardware had to be swapped out.
Perhaps the next generation of Amateur Radio transceviers will all have
user upgradable firmware. It appears as if some of the high end
transceivers from Yaesu and the named TS-2000 already do.
http://www.kenwood.com/i/products/info/amateur/ts2000_updating/ts_2000_updatingt
.hml
73,
Mark
KC7BXS
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Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: "Ronald Reams" <wa4mjf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:37:09 -0500
X-Message-Number: 14
Mark, the term formerly known as TYPE ACCEPTANCE had a very specific
meanin' and methodology. It applied only to transmitters and RF amps. The
equipment that was type accepted have a plate with TYPE or TRANS TYPE with
a couple of letters and some nuimbers.
All the facts you present are ture, but that does not make these procedures
encompass the term formerly known as type acceptance.
I've written RH to get the current moniker for type acceptance.
"certain external RF amplifiers" are the only ham equipment that is subject
to the processin' formerly known as type acceptance.
I just don't see how what appear to be other wise bright people, most seem
brighter than me, fail to grasp this simple concept.
73 de Ronnie
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Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: "Ronald Reams" <wa4mjf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:39:02 -0500
X-Message-Number: 15
I think Bob was the first one to use Type Acceptance, Mark.
However, I can see that I'm kinda talkin' to brick walls to use filter
terminology :-)
Interestin' about sway bars in GMs. Through out my carreer in law
enforcement, at least until about 1979, I drove Chrysler products. In 1979,
we got Chevs with sway bars, but converter was so hot it would set dry
grass on fire when topped on side of road. Had a 1981 Plymouth and then
Fords from then on. I guess I never thought that non-police package GMs
could not be ordered with out the sway bars. I always bought surplus police
cars :-)
73 de Ronnie
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Subject: Re: Archives
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:32:15 +0100
X-Message-Number: 16
Hello Alex,
At 07:58 5-3-03 -0500, Alex wrote:
>Yes, there is. Have you ever tried to find a specific message in the
>TAPR archives? Another problem is by definition the info in archives is
Yes, I have. Is hard.
>old. You need to have a good understanding of the subject matter in
>order to be able to judge if information is still pertinent.
Yes, you can also look at the TH-D7 Yahoo group or at the site of SV2AGW
for example.
>We may as well stop discussions about path settings and numerous other
>subjects if people would just read the archives, the web, manuals.
Yes, but that's on topic; Kenwoods upgrade policy isn't.
>Funny, whenever some folks see something happening they don't like they
>ask for the moderator to step in. When I hear these cries for help it
Well, that's not my intension. You can argue about it but I don't think its
on topic where as discussing path settings is. I don't share your optimism
that anything good or usefull will come out the current discussion.
>Every time the D7 upgrade comes up, you bring up the fact that it can't
>be upgraded in Europe. You, just as anyone else who participates in the
>discussion, are just as guilty of beating that poor horse.
Yes, I know. That's why I inserted some real content by suggesting to use a
basic stamp converter to overcome; so I attempted to stop the discussion
and provide a suggestion for an alternative to resolve the problem. Of
course I don't like Kenwoods upgrade policy and make side remarks about it.
Anyway, for those who cannot get enough about reading the TH-D7's problems
read:
http://www.elcom.gr/sv2agw/kenwood.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TH-D7/message/195
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TH-D7/message/232
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TH-D7/message/237
This will be my last reaction according this thread.
Kind regards,
Henk.
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Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:57:56 -0600
X-Message-Number: 17
At 12:39 PM 3/5/2003, Ronald Reams wrote:
>However, I can see that I'm kinda talkin' to brick walls
>to use filter terminology :-)
>
>Interestin' about sway bars in GMs.
Before anyone accuses me of getting off topic on the SIG - my comments to
Ronald Reams were made in private.
Unfortunately Mr. Reams chose to make those comments public to the SIG...
73,
Mark
KC7BXS
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Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
From: "Ronald Reams" <wa4mjf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 15:02:33 -0500
X-Message-Number: 18
Yep, I was one of the few that agreed with Stan that everyone should see
evry thing :-)
73 de Ronnie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
To: "Ronald Reams" <wa4mjf@worldnet.att.net>; "TAPR APRS Special Interest
Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 14:57
Subject: Re: APRS Urban Legend: FCC firmware upgrades, was Kenwood blah blah
At 12:39 PM 3/5/2003, Ronald Reams wrote:
>However, I can see that I'm kinda talkin' to brick walls
>to use filter terminology :-)
>
>Interestin' about sway bars in GMs.
Before anyone accuses me of getting off topic on the SIG - my comments to
Ronald Reams were made in private.
Unfortunately Mr. Reams chose to make those comments public to the SIG...
73,
Mark
KC7BXS
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