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ZL3AI > APRDIG 10.05.04 08:54l 230 Lines 9143 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: APRS greater precision
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:56:22 -0400
X-Message-Number: 59
APRS is designed to be a LOCAL network for LOCAL use by people who know
what they are doing. The default was WGS84. Any reasonable group that is
doing a reasonable thing will coordinate what datum they intend to use for
the event or application. ANd will make sure everyone "important" uses it.
Few events are done in the blind. Good communications required good
planning... Bob
>>>"Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com> 4/20/04 12:28:02 PM >>>
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Robert Bruninga wrote:
>2) Must contain the DATUM in every such position
The spec says that WGS84 is to be used in all cases. Has that
changed?
Many GPS'es change the serial-stream datum based on the display
datum, which was not anticipated way back when. That probably
causes a lot of APRS transmitted positions to be off by a datum
shift. If the transmitting TNC was smart enough to convert the
position to WGS84 before transmitting, we wouldn't have a problem.
>Or something like that.
>Anyway, I am not against higher precisinos, but it must be
>done carefully and correctly or it will only make matters WORSE.
We can already do higher precisions:
APRS Compressed posits
APRS NMEA posits with more digits (DD MM.MMMM)
OpenTrac posits (not APRS, but worth discussing)
--
Curt, WE7U archer at eskimo dot com
Arlington, WA, USA http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: Re: APRS Kenwood Radios
From: "Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:03:05 -0700
X-Message-Number: 60
I'm not sure what part of the message this was replying to. My point was
that I try to make upgradeability is easy as possible.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
To: "TAPR APRS Special Interest Group" <aprssig@lists.tapr.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:47 PM
Subject: [aprssig] Re: APRS Kenwood Radios
>Ah, so you only want to serve users that carry a Laptop
>for public service... Then fine. But thats leaving out
>about 90% of what APRS can do for the handheld user...
>
>Bob
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Subject: Kenwood MObile APRS
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:23:26 -0400
X-Message-Number: 61
>At some point we have to cut loose from the old systems
>and move on. Kenwoods should not hold us back from
>what we could become.
Who is "we". If basement video game players want to run off and play with
trinkets, then go ahead. But of the 23,000 stations you listed, 11,000 of
them are digis or other fixed assetts, 6100 of them were home stations
most of them doing nothing... of the remaining 6400,, then 4600 of them
(70% of all mobiles) were Kenwood or Mic-E's ACTUALLY OUT DOING SOMETHING.
I dont think that your desire to obsolete the 70% of all APRS mobile
operators who are actually USING APRS for something besides weather will
appreciate your desire to obsolete them.
Kenwood: 3322 14.18 468866 11.06 77.97
Std Mic-E: 1297 5.54 216213 5.10 92.10
TinyTrak: 855 3.65 170949 4.03 110.46
NMEA: 484 2.07 89158 2.10 101.77
Experimental: 370 1.58 121577 2.87 181.53
Hamhud: 8 0.03 989 0.02 68.30
Opentracker: 8 0.03 152 0.00 10.50
Remember,. APRS was not designed to b e a toy like a video game for people
with an attention span of a few minutes...
It was desiged to be a real-time-in-the field means to exchange digital
info... to the end user.... who would actually use it for something. After
practicing and learning how to use it.
P.S. Yes, some of the PC's listed above could have been mobile, but what I
see, it is less than 5% of the number of mobiles have any kind of PC or
display other than the Kenwoods.
Bob
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Subject: Re: APRS greater precision
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:30:28 -0400
X-Message-Number: 62
Sure there are limits. The D7 cannnot pinpoint to the nearest foot. But
so few people are even using it to the existing capability of 60 feet that
obsoleting ALL existing users to give a few people the precision to 1
foot... And to have to carry a LAPTOP to do it, seems dumb...
Bob
>>>"KC2MMi" <kc2mmi@verizon.net> 4/20/04 12:26:44 PM >>>
Bob?
<We are talking about adding precision to *any* existing APRS position
report format so as not to cause any existing application (or the Kenwoods)
not to still see the position.>
I don't know about the other Kenwood models, but I can tell you that the
only HT which allows for APRS display on the HT itself, the Kenwood
TH-D7A(G), is limited to displaying DDD.MM.mm on the display.
This is an inherent limit in the hardware. There is another limit in that
the radio only supports the Mic-E subset, and a third limit in the number
of characters the radio can display at all.
The only way that "the Kenwoods", including this radio, will ever be able
to display more precision, or simply more digits, will be if you use the
entire text messaging area string to send position data and then of course,
there will be no more space available to send much of anything else.
Once upon a time, "hardware" was built to last forever. Today hardware is
like fresh fruit, available from all over the globe cheaply and locally.
Use it, enjoy it, expect that in a couple of days [sic] it will rot on the
shelf and be obsolete regardless of how good it was when you bought it.
The Kenwood TH-D7A(G) is already obsolete, if the other Kenwoods are
obsolete as well...The only thing to be done is for the next generation of
APRS-compliant radios to use firmware that can be flashed and updated, as
computer BIOSes are today, for exactly the same reason.
Don't hobble your APRS standard in order to support obsolete equipment,
that's putting the horse before the cart.
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Subject: Kenwood users BEWARE!
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:42:00 -0400
X-Message-Number: 63
Wes said:
>Wow.... kenwood is 14% of 23,000 aprs users.
>Wow.. that is really phenomenal!!!!
You bet, and it is 70% of all mobiles! Subtracting out the 11,000
digipeters and Internet nodes and the 6400 Home stations doing nothing, and
it reppresents the 70% of APRS users on the air that are actually USING
APRS for something.
If Kenwood users want to protect their investment in a radio that can
display just about ANYTHING they need to know while moble they better speak
up, or the XASTIR and OPEN_TRACK people plan on obsoleting them as soon as
they can...
And of course, they dont care about you, beacuse they can download their
latest toy in 3 minutes and have no interest in keeping you connected to
APRS... and able to see what is going on in your mobile.
Because they want to see precision to 1 foot and could care less if you see
anything...
If they have their way, APRS becomes just an internet video game. Useless
in most come-as-you are venues...
Bob
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Subject: Re: APRS Kenwood
Radios <LYR36507-194979-2004.04.20-12.06.38--mikejp#videotron.ca@lists.ta
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:50:41 -0400
X-Message-Number: 64
The "appliance" operators you condem are the 99% of HAM radio ops that show
up at a HAM radio event and Operate and PROVIDE a SERVICE. They need a
product that can do what is needed. They cannot afford to chase the latest
cute ideas of the latest programmer that shows up and thinks he has a
better way...
And they dont appreciate overt attempts to obsolete the radio or having to
buy a new version every year because a tiny minority needs precision to 1
foot (WHICH DOES NOT EXIST).
Especially when the programmer has no clue what the other 70% of APRS
appliance operators are using because he doesnt even own one or use one...
Bob
>>>"Scott Miller" <scott@opentrac.org> 4/20/04 1:35:27 PM >>>
My biggest problem with the TM-D700 is the obvious one - price. Gigaparts
has it for $464. More than I want to pay for something that doesn't do
what I want.
I think this comes down to a fundamental problem in ham radio. We're no
longer a culture of experimenters and innovators, we're consumers and
appliance users. Kenwood gave us a couple of radios with APRS features how
many years ago? And what have they done to improve them or correct them
since? What tools have they given us to make improvements ourselves?
Scott
N1VG
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