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ZL3AI > APRDIG 10.05.04 08:25l 235 Lines 9255 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: APRS greater precision
From: "Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 19
On Sun, 18 Apr 2004, Robert Bruninga wrote:
>2) Must contain the DATUM in every such position
The spec says that WGS84 is to be used in all cases. Has that changed?
Many GPS'es change the serial-stream datum based on the display datum,
which was not anticipated way back when. That probably causes a lot of
APRS transmitted positions to be off by a datum shift. If the transmitting
TNC was smart enough to convert the position to WGS84 before transmitting,
we wouldn't have a problem.
>Or something like that.
>Anyway, I am not against higher precisinos, but it must be
>done carefully and correctly or it will only make matters WORSE.
We can already do higher precisions:
APRS Compressed posits
APRS NMEA posits with more digits (DD MM.MMMM)
OpenTrac posits (not APRS, but worth discussing)
--
Curt, WE7U archer at eskimo dot com
Arlington, WA, USA http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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Subject: APRS Kenwood Radios
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:27:50 -0400
X-Message-Number: 20
Amazing post:
>Kenwood took a big gamble designing a radio with APRS
>as its central focus. Clearly sales haven't been what they
>expected or may have been led to believe might have
>been possible.
Really? I wonder where you got that info? I have heard that it is one of
their best sellers considering the VERY SMALL market of APRS users...
>If only 10,000 units were sold... 10,000 hams is a VERY small
>percentage of the world's amateur population.
Duh, but its 50% of APRS operators world wide.
>It's only something like 5% of the U.S. amateur base, IIRC.
Yep, and only about 5% of the US base has ever tried APRS as we all know.
APRS is a very small minoity of HAMS. So if you are going to use
statistics, how about comparing apples to apples..
>Is it possible that Kenwood believed that by developing
>the D-7 and D-700 radios that a much larger percentage
>of hams would try APRS and, hence, boost their sales?
No, I dont think so. I think they saw a need of the APRS affectionado and
tried to give them what they could. And did a fantastic job considering
how much is stuffed into that radio (that most people hve no clue about)...
>Both radios are difficult to use unless you have a
>computer tied to them which pretty much eliminates
>the need for all the APRS programming in the radio
>itself.
I think that is where you are missing the boat. First it shows that the
target user has to be someone that is alredy fully understands APRS as a
local digital communications system (not an Internet past time). To them,
then the Radio in the palm of their hand is the cat's meow!
To the average ham off the street that still sees no use for APRS, then he
also sees no use for the radio. Which makes perfect sense...
>Ever tried to send any kind of a text message using
>the D-7 keypad or the D-700 mic??? 5 WPM MORSE
>CODE IS FASTER!!!!
Yes, but it's there when you need it and it goes anywhere in the world. ANd
the person on the other end can read it on his HT (anywhere in the world)
or on his APRS or on his PC via email...
People who think the radio is suppsoed to be a replacement for their
entertainment sitting on the Internet for hours a day have no clue of the
potential for the radio in real world situations doing what APRS was
designed to do...
That is, but at the fingertips of the field operator, the immediate digital
information he needs.
>Now, I'm really going to stick my neck out here....
>Folks: APRS is dying. It is a "novelty" item and the
>longer that you (Bob Bruninga) continue to insist
>that every new APRS innovation must be fully
>backward compatible then we are destined to
>continue dying.
That sounds like the attitude of a video game player who has no need to
communicate in a consistent repliable and standardized manner to his local
event. All he wants is more bells an whistlesI and weekly upgrades to show
off to his friends...
Tell me what you think should show up on the front panel of a mobile radio?
or an attached laptop. I think we can provide most of it now.. with what we
have...
>but if we carefully examine the history of amateur radio in
>the past 40 years since SSB became the de facto mode
>on HF you will see some alarming similarities in the trends
>happening in APRS to those which have happened to
>ham radio in general.
Excellent point! If HAM radio operators chased after every "new whizbang
IMPROVEMENT" that has been proposed over the last 40 years, as an
improvement to SSB, then we would have thousands of people THAT COULD NOT
COMMUNICATE!
What makes SSB so pervasive and RELIABLE is that it has REMAINED THE SAME.
ANd that is what makes HAM radio SHINE, becsue it can come to an emergent
need and ALWAYS communicate. They dont have to have the latest hardware,
nor the lates software, nor the latest upgrade, nor the latest download,
but they can ccommunicate! Because the stick with a standard THAT WORKS...
>Has anyone else noticed the alarming ABSENCE of
>the Brothers Sproul and the other key players from
>the SIG the past two years? THAT should be
>telling us all something!!!
Yep, ideas come and go. But having a standard and sticking too it, allows
new authors to make something that will work well with everyone else..
>I greatly respect and admire Bob Bruninga for everything
>he has done to start this great experiment but I believe it
>is time to move on and move into the 21st Century in
>both our thinking and our approach to improving
>what we do.
What do you consider improvement? A tower of babble that guarantees that
no two users at any given instant can communicate the same thing, unless
they have recently downloaded from the internet the LASTEST change?
>Frankly, I'm surprised that some of the other developers
>haven't completely abandoned the APRS Spec and
>moved on in new directions already.
It has been a dissapointement to me that develpers have not taken the
initiative to do the things that need to be done NOW and can be done NOW.
SUch as:
1) Automated DFing.
2) Alerts to ECHOLINK and IRLP node status
3) Local paging interfaaces
4) Proximity alerts when a mobile approaches something of note
5) Tiny-web-pages of info on ther kenwoods on all manner
of local information a mobile or visitor might need
6) Local meeting and net alerts (LOCAL!!!)
ALl of the above can work and WILL fit if they are kept local. once we ween
users from the idea that APRS is supposed to be another internet to see the
world...
>Let's do something to make APRS virtually indispensable
>to EVERY ham. Something that every ham will HAVE to
>have as a part of a complete station. Right now we're
>about as exciting as sitting around and watching the grass
>grow!
EXACTLY! That is why we need to use it to PUSH local and pertinent info to
LOCAL users so that if there is ANYTHING going on in HAM radio within their
local area, it should show up on the front panel of their mobile radio
while they are driving...
>Is ANYONE else as bored a s I am with APRS????
>Does anyone really care about where we're going???
Yes! So get busy. Define and write application software to send to the
mobile user the kind of info you would like to see. You can format it for
quick head's up display on the radio, or for more elaboirate display on the
mobile laptop...
>Eventually, you get tired of seeing the little subs
>on the sonar displays moving around, too!
Yes, and that is only a tiny fraction of what APRS was deisgned to do and
what it can do. It is the lack of imagination to actually apply it to
local need instead of just playing video games on the internet that is
holding APRS back...
>"WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY??!?!?"
>More importantly: "Where do you want to go
>TOMORROW?!?!?!"
And better yet, WHY ARE'NT YOU DOING IT TODAY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TODAY?
de WB4APR, Bob
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Subject: Re: APRS Kenwood Radios
<LYR36507-194979-2004.04.20-12.06.38--mikejp#videotron.ca@lists.tapr.org>
From: "Curt, WE7U" <archer@eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 21
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Michael J. Pawlowsky wrote:
>All I know is I love my D700.
>Especially that it can display APRS positions as waypoints on my plain old
>GPS.
>Beats trying to secure a laptop to my car dash! ;-)
There are other ways to do it as well. The Anti-tracker is one.
--
Curt, WE7U archer at eskimo dot com
Arlington, WA, USA http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!"
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