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ZL3AI > APRDIG 03.01.04 13:13l 241 Lines 9194 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Jan 02, 1/3
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
TAPR APRS Special Interest Group Digest for Friday, January 02, 2004.
1. Re: Trace Route on Findu?
2. Re: Trace Route on Findu?
3. Re: Trace Route on Findu?
4. Re: Trace Route on Findu?
5. Re: Trace Route on Findu?
6. Re: BPL?
7. Re: KAM TNC
8. Interesting path seen here this morning...
9. Another one of those "interesting" paths --
10. Panavise retailer?
11. Re: National Parks Digi Coverage (Rev 3)
12. California APRS use may be illegal?
13. Re: California APRS use may be illegal?
14. Re: California APRS use may be illegal?
15. Re: California APRS use may be illegal?
16. Re: Another one of those "interesting" paths --
17. TAPR Mic-Encoder w/internal SVeeSix-CM2
18. Survey sez....
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Subject: Re: Trace Route on Findu?
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:07:53 -0500
X-Message-Number: 1
On 1/1/04 at 11:27 PM Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net> sent:
>On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:39:16 -0500, Steve Dimse wrote:
>>>
>>>http://aprsworld.net/data/igate-hops/ http://aprsworld.net/info/
>>>
>>>you might want to ping James and see if he has done any further
>>>work along these lines. One thing it does clearly show is areas
>>>that need an I-Gate
>>>
>>Does it?
>
>Yes, one area in particular shows four hops to make a I-gate. Not that it
>would automatically make people reduce their path length, but it would give
>them the option.
Does it really? Yes, there is an area with 4 hops to an IGate, but does
that show with certainty an IGate is needed there, which was your original
claim?
Could it be there is an IGate there, but it uses a slower internet
connection, so its packets get there after RF packets that have travelled a
longer route to the next nearest IGate?
Could it be that the area is lacking a good, high digi, so everyone must
travel through a number of low digis to get to even a nearby IGate. This is
not theoretical, it was the situation in South Florida for many years.
There are no mountains here, and 1000 foot tower space is hard to come by,
so we had a bunch of WIDEs at 100 feet. Ralph Fowler said it best..."Miami,
where everyone is a WIDE"!
Could it be there is one guy with a path like
"via w9xyz-1,w9xyz-2,w9xyz-3,WIDE" where his packets bounce aimless among
his own local rf stations until they actually enter the digi network?
Could there have been a special event there that generated longer than
normal paths through temp digis on one day the few month period?
Could there be IGate there, it was only down one day out of the few months,
but it happened to be the day that the last points for the image came out
of the database, resulting on them being drawn on top of a bunch of 1-2 hop
positions?
I'm not claiming any of these are the problem, but I cannot exclude any
with the information given. My point is not to jump to the obvious
conclusion without looking at what the image really represents, and
thinking critically about the confounding factors that may be present.
At best, I'd say this is an area of concern, and only further investigation
would reveal if this was a real problem, and if so, if the best solution is
an IGate and not a digi or other intervention.
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: Trace Route on Findu?
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:45 -0500
X-Message-Number: 2
Steve:
I really don't have the time to play woulda shoulda coulda with you, I was
just trying to direct Ralph to a person that has manipulated APRS data in
other ways.
If you want to find a problem or tear someone elses work down, I'm not going
to play your game. So stuff it.
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 01/02/2004
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Subject: Re: Trace Route on Findu?
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 01:16:56 -0500
X-Message-Number: 3
Suffice to say, this message shouldn't have been sent and certainly not sent
to the SIG. So sorry to everyone.
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 01/02/2004
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:38:45 -0500, Jeff King wrote:
>Steve:
>
>I really don't have the time to play woulda shoulda coulda with you,
>I was just trying to direct Ralph to a person that has manipulated
>APRS data in other ways.
>
>If you want to find a problem or tear someone elses work down, I'm
>not going to play your game. xxxx
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Subject: Re: Trace Route on Findu?
From: Steve Dimse <k4hg@tapr.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 01:42:37 -0500
X-Message-Number: 4
On 1/2/04 at 12:38 AM Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net> sent:
>I really don't have the time to play woulda shoulda coulda with you, I was
>just trying to direct Ralph to a person that has manipulated APRS data in
>other ways.
>
>If you want to find a problem or tear someone elses work down, I'm not going
>to play your game. So stuff it.
That was not at all what I was doing. In fact, as I stated in the first
post, the primary limitations are those of the APRS Internet System, my
creation.
I was trying to show the importance of understanding the limitations of the
data available through findU and aprsworld, and to introduce people to the
process of critical thinking. The internet is full of graphs, charts, and
maps proporting to show all sorts of things. I think it is important
everyone, not just physicians, develop scepticism and a method for
evaluating data.
If you have no desire to look at data critically, that is your choice, but
don't falsely accuse me of trying to tear someone else's work down. James
never claimed these maps showed where IGates were needed, you did. As I
said, the maps can provide a starting point, but are not the definitive
evidence you stated they were.
If you want to ignore my opinion of the shortcomings of the APRS IS for
this task, that is your choice, but it does not give you the right to
mischaracterize my motives! Either argue based on the facts, or stay
silent, but don't start hurling insults!
Steve K4HG
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Subject: Re: Trace Route on Findu?
From: Jeff King <jeff@aerodata.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 02:29:51 -0500
X-Message-Number: 5
I suggested that APRSWORLD might be able to provide what the fellow was
looking for. What I provided was simply an example, not the solution.
Of course you have to look at data critically, but you have to >have< the
data in the first place to look at. That is why I suggested APRSWORLD as it
is a open source solution and I have found James very response to user
requests.
As to your other assumptions, that is all they are. I was very clear that the
end data would be useful overlaid on a highway map and suggested highway
usage data be also factored in. You are the one that chose to ignore this
critical piece of data. I find it amazing you even try to preach to me about
data sets and/or GIS. GIS is not the same as running an emergency room and
obviously you don't even know what the author of APRSWORLD does or what I do.
Your never going to get a clear answer, but you can look at trends, in
particular if your data set is big enough. I've seen some of the bigger data
APRSWORLD datasets, and they do in fact jive with commercial road usage data.
Strange as it may be, if you put enough hams on the road (such as Los
Angles), after a while it starts to look like the general populations data.
BTW, I'm working with the University of California on a major GIS/AVL
project, and I provided Jame's APRS data on Los Angles to them, and they
where very impressed. These are Phd's and Phd candidates in the field of
traffic management.
As to wanting to "argue", I don't want to do that, as at the end of the day,
I can never win arguing with you. The SIG loses.
Insults, yes, not good, certainly not on the SIG. I guess I lost my patience.
So.... how can we bring this to an end?
--
Jeff King, jeff@aerodata.net on 01/02/2004
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Subject: Re: BPL?
From: "Stephen H. Smith" <WA8LMF2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:31:41 -0800
X-Message-Number: 6
Earl Needham wrote on 1/1/2004, 3:48 PM:
>I thought it wasn't approved yet, but I saw a
>router at my local Radio Shack that purports to use your house wiring
>instead of Cat5 cable.
>
>Not the same thing, right? I hope...
>
>Earl
>
>Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
Not the same thing, but it is another source of broadband noise in and
around the home, and yet another source of EMI/RFI complaints from
owners of crappy plastic-cased unshielded home entertainment
electronics. [ This powerline-carrier LAN stuff has been around for
about two years now. ]
Stephen H. Smith wa8lmf (at) aol.com
Home Page: http://wa8lmf.com
Ham Radio/Mobile SSTV page: http://members.aol.com/wa8lmf/ham
APRS Stuff
http://members.aol.com/wa8lmf/aprs
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