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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.11.03 10:19l 218 Lines 10045 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
TAPR APRS Special Interest Group Digest for Friday, November 14, 2003.
1. Re: [ Steve Dimse ] Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
2. Re: The wrap up
3. [aprssig]:Just Wondering
4. Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
5. PISSINK CONTEST THAT KEEPS GOING ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.
6. ADMIN: Inappropriate Behavior
7. The APRS standard Range Scale on FINDU
8. BalloonSat IV and V Launch Announcement
9. Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
10. Appoligy
11. Re: The APRS standard Range Scale on FINDU
12. Re: TH-D7A(G) (was: Re: PI...)
13. Re: The APRS standard Range Scale on FINDU
14. Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
15. Re: The APRS standard Range Scale on FINDU
16. Re: The APRS standard Range Scale on FINDU
17. Re: ADMIN: Inappropriate Behavior
18. OT: Finding who's hosting a website....
19. Re: ADMIN: Inappropriate Behavior
20. RE: FW: [amsat-bb] ISS Active
21. Radio Shack Digitraveler
22. Re: Radio Shack Digitraveler
23. Re: Radio Shack Digitraveler
24. Re: Radio Shack Digitraveler
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Subject: Re: [ Steve Dimse ] Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon
statistics
From: "Gregg G. Wonderly" <gregg@skymaster.cytetech.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:10:47 -0600
X-Message-Number: 1
>Again, this is a guy using APRS to figure out the local ground level winds and
>how they are going to affect the cloud. If you place every APRS object and
user
>on the display, with a bunch of different colors, DR circles on mobiles he
>doesn't care about, and motion vectors criss-crossing the map, it will be
harder
>to see the wind vectors he cares about. With enough clutter, entire weather
>stations will be hidden from his view.
If the software displays these attributes recklessly and without adequate
attention to differentiation and interpretability, then yes, users will be
completely overwhelmed by the volume of information they are digesting. I
don't believe that it is impossible to display all of these things in a way
that they could be both ignored and comprehended as needed.
That is really the challenge to the software authors. Can you find a way
to make this a useful thing for people to 'have to look at' and, at the
same time make this a useful thing that people 'want to look at'.
This whole discussion is being led down the path of 'this is useless
information', but there are comments included by all parties indicating
that there is some use of the information, just not all the time. So, how
can the software authors make it work for everyone?
-----
gregg@cytetech.com (Cyte Technologies Inc)
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Subject: Re: The wrap up
From: "Gregg G. Wonderly" <gregg@skymaster.cytetech.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:48:30 -0600
X-Message-Number: 2
>Even so, all of this is moot. The APRS protocol is ruled by WB4APR and Bob
has
>already said he has no interest in addressing the needs I've outlined. Again,
>it's sad, but nobody said the real world is always a fair and happy place. :)
This is just insanity. There are no laws being made. There are no choices
being forced on anyone. If you choose to ignore Bob, you may have fewer
people using your software sometime in the future. But, maybe not. If we
let this thread take away our freedom of choice by just accepting the
argument that this information is worthless, then we might loose an
opportunity to work smarter. We won't know which way will be better by
choosing to argue instead of trying the ideas out.
Apparently many think, that somehow, Bobs words come written on parchment
with the Kings seal on document. Further, it seems the document must be
toasted to a pile of ash before it hits the SIG, or it will somehow become
Law that...
I am not sure how to measure that level of response...
-----
gregg@cytetech.com (Cyte Technologies Inc)
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Subject: [aprssig]:Just Wondering
From: Tad Burnett <tburnett@vermontel.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:30:13 -0500
X-Message-Number: 3
I have been watching the Jesica Lynch story all over the TV this week.. It
seems that the whole things stems from a missed turn...There was supposed
to be a road guard out to tell them where to turn but he got tired of
waiting and went home leaveing her small group to continue on into an enamy
strong hold..
Tell me if I am wrong but it seems to me that if they had a 10 year old lap
top and Bobs 1st release of APRS with a map drawn from a few points that
surely are available from the mapping done from Shuttle a few years ago
this all could have been avoided...
The point being..the GPS system was developed for multi million dollar
equipment but modern civilian use has brought the technology down to the
point where the average HAM has it in his car...Maybe a every jeep
operating in an area where there might be blinding sand storms just a few
miles from the enemy should be carring a mapping program...packet radio
equipment optional....
N1QAG Tad
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Bill Herrmann <bherrman@spro.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:49:00 -0700
X-Message-Number: 4
At 08:39 PM 11/13/2003 -0500, Bob Bruninga wrote:
>Just shows-to-go-ya how two people can have difficulty communicating when
>they BOTH think they are talking about the same thing, but they arent.
You know, it's kind of painful to watch from the outside when you know two
people are talking about two different things and don't realize it.
(Especially when you can't do anything about it!)
>Thats why we must have all APRS programs present the same information data
>set to the end user in a consistent manner if we expect the end users to
>be able to communicate with integrity.
....and in order to do that they first have to have a way to have the same
data to work with.
>And this -doesn't- mean displaying everything about everything and
>cluttering up the map to make it unusable. Which is your point, and an
>EXCELLENT one... What I mean by this is that when two people see
>the -same- ICON representing the SAME thing, no matter what else is on or
>not-on the screen, they should see the same information content about
>that ICON. That is, an ICON and its attributes.
I'm tremendously glad to see this laid out because some of the argument
prior to this has seemed to be counter to this. However, I disagree that
the icon is the important thing here. (and I'm tremendously troubled by the
whole multi-icon thread) The important thing is not the icon but the
attributes. The icon is merely a way to indicate that "here be information".
Let me give an example - (and I'm using a somewhat made up example to avoid
some of the misunderstanding that's gone into this discussion)
Given: We have stations that transmit their location on an RF network
Given: That each station can send attributes about their capabilities. Two
such attributes represent whether they are moving and whether they are
capable of movement. Another attribute represents the preferred contact
method. Other attributes might represent what methods can be used to
contact them. (aka APRS message capable, voice on freq X etc.)
Imagine: Net control needs a station to send to location XYZ. NC displays
all stations capable of movement and also information about any current
movement. Now the NC can pick and send the best candidate to location XYZ.
Obviously you can construct other scenarios using other views of the same
data, but this simple example is one example of what I believe is trying to
be expressed as one way to use APRS.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Without the underlying data it
doesn't matter how much you define about how it is displayed. You have to
get the data through first and you have to specify how to do it. Then you
specify these are the types of things that might need to be displayed. (or
filtered on)
Another hobby I'm involved with has the concepts of standards and
recommended practices. Applying that to APRS: Standards are things you must
do to be able to claim you are APRS. Recommended practices are things you
should do. Additionally, if you do implement an optional feature that has a
recommended practice you must support the recommended practice way of doing it.
It appears that in order to advance APRS needs to produce a set or
recommend practices to provide an interoperability goal.
>We just need more of them to display more of the fundamental
>attributes so that everyone is seeing the same thing... (and I am not
>saying HOW, just WHAT needs to be displayed)...
A minor nit here - more of them need the ability to display those, but they
also need the ability to turn off the non-pertinent information.
I think it's great to say what, but we need to be careful not to say how.
We also need to at least recommend ways that appropriately convey
information. One of the reasons I'm really bothered by the whole multi-icon
thread is that we're talking about sending multiple pictures to try and
convey station capabilities when we should be talking about sending station
capabilities and permitting users to see the ones they care about.
Using Steve's example of someone trying to predict movement of a toxic
cloud along with some of the examples given in "multi-icon": I couldn't
care less about whether a given station is an igate, a digi, or a truck.
All I care about is that it has weather capability and it says that the
wind vector is here. I don't even care what the station name is. Really all
I need is an indication that there is a station there reporting this
vector. Displaying a WX icon is useless to me. Displaying the data is the
desired goal.
Bill
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