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ZL3AI > APRDIG 20.11.03 20:13l 320 Lines 13648 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: MULTI-ICON proposal
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:46:02 -0500 (EST)
X-Message-Number: 45
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, AE5PL Lists wrote:
>Bob, Your self-serving diatribe finally got me to respond...
>
>Which mess are you talking about? The 20,000+ stations that are now on
>world-wide (increased from about 6,000 three years ago)?
The inability of users across platforms to "see" the same information on
a given situational area. Has nothing to do with numebrs of users...
>>we end up with "APRS" that CANNOT be used under stress by
>>come-as-you-are volunteers to an event or emergency!
>
>I have used APRSDos (I am a registered user) and in no way could it be
>used by the "come-as-you-are" volunteer, IMO.
Wow, And I ABSOLUTELY NEVER IMPLIED THAT. You (and many others) are
apparently missreading into this their own biases and issues. I NEVER
EVER expect people to use APRSdos these days with all the other options
out there... AND I NEVER EVER expect everyone to use the same software!
That is what I am RANTING about, is that we WANT everyone to use their
OWN favorite APRS clinet. But we WANT them to see the SAME fundamental
information when they zoom into an area of interest:
1) The same standard SYMBOLOGY
2) The same standard ATTRIBUTES associated with that symbology
3) The same standard way to communicate an area of interest (range scale)
Where do you read "APRSdos" in that?
>We successfully trained a number of operators in the use of many
>different APRS software. And guess what, APRSDos was not the software
>of choice by any of them.
And I would hope not! *****, why use something written 10 years ago in
BASIC and designed for an 8 MHz 286! when we have so much PC power around
us. I Never EVER suggest using APRSdos if you can find another client
program that displays what you need. What I WANT is for all the other
client programs to simply display the SIMPLE FUNDAMENTAL STANDARD
symbology and the ATTRIBUTES that go with that symbology and the RANGE
SCALE so that we can ALL see the same thing when we are looking at the
same area of interest!.
>>BUT IT DOESNT WORK IN HAM RADIO. There is no market force, > > there
>>is no central authority, there is nothing but volunteerrs that
>
>Bob, what do you think market forces are? Time to leave the military
>hat behind. Market forces work BECAUSE there is no central authority.
Exactlly my point. People should be able to use ANY APRS Client and SEE
THE SAME FUNDAMENTAL INFORMATION when they are looking at the SAME
SITUATION on their map. Im not talking about what it LOOKS like or "HOW"
it is displayed, SIMPLY that they "SEE" the same information.
What is so hard to understand about such a simple concept as that...
>>It is this lack of insistance on APRS as a STANDARD that is actually
>>KILLING APRS. Locally our local clubs just dont use APRS
>
>Again, a 3-4 times growth in APRS stations is hardly denoting the death
>of APRS.
No, but I see FEWER and FEWER clubs that use APRS generally, and I see
MORE and MORE clubs that tend to focus on only one client progarm so that
they can get consistent results in real live events and situatinos... and
can plan and train their operators.
>IMO, APRSDos is the lowest common denominator in display graphics. I
>know of far more APRS+SA, UI-View, Xastir, WinAPRS, and MacAPRS stations
>being used "under stress" than APRSDos in the DFW area.
Wow, I would sure hope so... But that doesnt mean they are all "seeing"
what they are all supposed to be seeing...
Bottom line:
>APRSDos was a good application written for the human interfaces
>available at the time. Times change. Instead of saying "APRSDos is
>perfect and all other software is broken and incomplete",
And where on earth did you hear that? Certainly not from me.
>it might be time to honestly look at what the other software does bring
>to the table and how your theories on what needs to be displayed on an
>APRS display can be accomplished utilizing the expanded capabilities of
>the new GUI's.
Absoluetly! There is SO MUCH POWER IN A PC, so why do we still have ICONs
on 600 MHz pentiums that just sit there looking the SAME and missleading
users who cannot tell the difference between something that is:
1) A station or an OBJECT
2) Moving or not
3) Precise or ambiguous
4) Dedreckoned or not
5) Old or current
6) Message capable or not
7) Killed or active
8) Your objects or someone elses
You just dont get it. Where on earth do you get the idea that I am
saying APRSdos is great, or what should be used!!!! Nothing could be
further from the truth.... What I am saying is that there are clinet
programs that are deficinet because they dont display all the attributes
associated with ICONS that are fundamental to the design "of APRS".
I am NOT saying of "APRSdos", I am saying of "APRS" as the standard for
tactical real-time comunicatinos across platforms of a consistent
infomration data set to be conveyed to the end user graphically.
>By your reasoning, we would be better off if Unix, Linux, Windows,
>MacOS, PalmOS, etc. didn't exist because we have a "tower of babble" of
>operating systems and GUI's available to the uneducated masses.
ABSOLUELY wrong. And a totally missunderstanding of my resoning.
>What is actually the case is we have people choosing the GUI they are
>most comfortable working with which makes them far more productive in
>"stress" situations than if they had to learn a new GUI at the time of
>an emergency.
NOTHING ABOUT WHAT I AM ASKING has anything to do with GUI. Clients may
use ANY GUI they want and there are some GREAT ones.
READ MY LIPS: (or words here)
Its not the GUI, it is WHAT FUNDAMENTAL INFORMATION is conveyed...
>Over the years, you have created a large number of documents with a lot
>of good information about what you believe should be in a APRS display.
>Unfortunately, the documentation is disjointed, in some places
>contradictory, and difficult to glean the important information for
>someone writing a new application. That is one of the biggest things
>IMHO that the APRS WG did: assemble a coherent document (yes, there are
>some mistakes) that is usable as a foundation by all authors. Instead
>of restating your disdain for the WG accomplishment because it didn't
>cover GUI's, you might think about how you could emulate the WG end
>product with a coherent specification of what you think are the minimum
>requirements for an APRS GUI.
I will do so in the next email.
de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob
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Subject: Kantronics Talon data radio?
From: "Bob D." <n2iph@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:49:50 -0500
X-Message-Number: 46
What does anyone know about these new data radios?
Could they form the 9k6 backbone we have all been dreaming of?
http://www.kantronics.com/talon2.html
Talon UDC Data Radio with GPS
Specifications -- Talon UDC
Modem Specifications (partial, see link above for complete data)
Operating modes Transparent, TUB, Connected/Unconnected, Packet
(AX.25L2), KISS, HOST, POLL
Power requirements 8-15 V dc @ 3 A max
Interface EIA/TIA 232 RS-232 compatible interface
Over the air data rate 9600 bps (4800 baud) scramble and FEC user
selectable
Modulation QLFSK
Port speed 19.2 k
Radio Specifications
General Integral transceiver
Transmitter output power Progammable up to 6 W
Receiver sensitivity 1 x 10-6 @ -105 dBm
Frequency range 136 - 162, 148 - 174
400 - 420, 450 - 470 MHz
Duty cycle 50% (30 s TX max) @ 6 W
Frequency stability 1.55 PPM
Carrier power <1 W to 6 W
GPS antenna connection MCX (f)
RF connection N (f)
Data connection Dsub 9 (f)
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Subject: Re: Station attributes -was- RE: APRS Icon statistics
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:25:31 +0100
X-Message-Number: 47
Hello Scott,
At 15:50 12-11-03 -0800, Scott Miller wrote:
>This brings up one of my pet peeves with all the APRS software I've tried so
>far - this information is available, but you've got to (at least in UI-View
>and Xasitr) click on the icon and bring up a new window to see it. Xastir
Xastir can show the most important information also with the icon, like for
example for moving stations speed and course and for WX stations the WX
data like temperature and barometer pressure etc.
>and I don't have to open a new window or dialog. Or put the information
>around the symbol/icon when I mouse over it. Whatever. You don't have to
>have it on the screen all the time, but don't make me dig for it.
I like that! A bit like a yellow pop-up help as used in MS Windows if you
keep your mouse steady on an item.
Kind regards,
Henk.
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Subject: Re: MULTI-ICON proposal
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:40:36 +0100
X-Message-Number: 48
Hello Pete,
At 16:44 12-11-03 -0600, AE5PL Lists wrote:
>I have used APRSDos (I am a registered user) and in no way could it be
>used by the "come-as-you-are" volunteer, IMO.
I have to agree on that. Since APRSdos is the mother of all other programs
I made several attempts to use it. Every once in a while I try but get
completely lost. I have no idea why, but every time I end up with "fade
points", sending messages when I don't want to etc. In other words I'm not
in control of what happens. I still don't know when menus appear and how to
make them disappear. Besides that the texts are horrible to read, I guess
mainly due to the limited 640x480 monochrome screen of the laptop I run
this on. On the other hand Xastir also runs on this laptop without problems/
You realy need to have a very strong motivation to go ahead and learn it.
After 3 days of trying I usually give up, but can't realy completly give up
and let it rest, so every few weeks or months I just have to get back to it
try again. Up to now without much succes however. I'm convinced once the
keystrokes are known by hart it is very efficient, but you have to be a
daily user to get that amount of experience.
>available at the time. Times change. Instead of saying "APRSDos is
>perfect and all other software is broken and incomplete", it might be
>time to honestly look at what the other software does bring to the table
>and how your theories on what needs to be displayed on an APRS display
>can be accomplished utilizing the expanded capabilities of the new
>GUI's.
Now I have to defend APRSdos. It's navigation and visiual representation is
outdated, but there went a lot of thinking in the program that is to
valueble to throw away. The problem is that there is so much that there is
no overview anywhere of all these details.
I think the Lyris archive has a rich set of these details, but they are
unordered, unstructured and ad-hoc. If I would start building a new client
today, I whould no know which requirements were essential to have on my
display.
For example the latest list: CURRENT is usually shown by a solid icon while
OLD is shown by ghosting. But the ghosting time is adjustable in most
clients and "net cycle time" is not a stable constant either, it used to be
10 min but with the static stations operating with a 30 min rate that is
not longer true. Xastir has the capability to show the age with the icon,
this is much better info that the 2 state icon.
MOVING is shown by a trail the station leaves behind in Xastir. Dead
Reckoning is shown by a ghosting icon with a dotted line to the icon at the
last reported position. There is also a circle segment that displays the
uncertainty in the directrion of dead reckoned vector. MESSAGE capable is
the only thing that seems missing in Xastir at first glance.
But that is just the latest list Bob posted. We talked before about
coverage circles, DF using fade objects, object behaviour or visual
difference between object and station etc etc.
Maybe its good to put all the display features in a table (not how they are
represented but what information should be conveyed to the user). Then rank
these features from 0..5 for importance, where 0 is "nice-but-niche" and 5
is "fundamental-must-have". Then rank the clients against this table so
authors can focus on what is missing to get a better rank. Clients that do
not have the "fundamental-must-have" are "rank 6"; which could be quite
okay if the client is not a "general purpose" APRS client but only used for
example a WX viewer or DX cluster viewer. The lower the rank number, the
more features are supported. A rank 3 client must fullfill all rank 3, 4
and 5 requirements, if one is missing then the client should have a higher
number rank.
This way you can tag clients. A SAR group could for example require that
any APRS client used during SAR is at least "rank 4" complient. Than you
would know exactly which features everybody would see (features for rank 4
and 5) and which one will not show up on everybodies display (lower rank
features).
I think the Xastir group already has a comparison table like this, we only
need to extend that with what has come up lately and get the ranking (of
course thats the hardest part, but without it there will never be a
structured way to get the displays alligned). The easiest way is to have
somebody make a proposal ranking (Bob?) and then allow 3 iterations of
adjustments before freezing it.
Kind regards,
Henk.
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