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ZL3AI > APRDIG 06.10.03 09:16l 245 Lines 10029 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Oct 03, 3/4
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: RS DigiTraveller wiring
From: Earl Needham <needhame@yucca.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 13:06:31 -0600
X-Message-Number: 13
Could someone please give me the info for connecting the PDA version of
this GPS to a TNC for use in a dumb tracker? I know the info was on the
list recently, but I accidently deleted those messages.
Thanks,
Earl
Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk
KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1
-EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630>
SETI@Home: 10979WU/7.13yrs!
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Subject: Re: The APRSteward SPAM filter [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 21:58:08 +0200
X-Message-Number: 14
Hello Bill,
At 09:14 3-10-03 -0700, Bill Vodall WA7NWP wrote:
>>If WIDE2-2 is not a problem but WIDE7-7 is, why not just refuse to take
>any
>>WIDE7-x packets? Oh wait, I see... you can't.
>
>Why not? It's doesn't seem like it should be so hard... :-)
We have the technology :-), getting it deployed is the problem :-(
>>It may be prossible to block
>>WIDE3-x or worse by patching the Kantronics EPROM. But since the DMCA
>
>Even if Kantronics were to release a SDK (Software Development Kit) or
>the actual current source code, it would be very questionable if we
>should continue to limit what we do because of the limited hardware.
....and the deployment problem would still be there. Getting people to swap
their TNC-2 PROM for a free-of-charge UIDIGI PROM on a wide scale is
already a problem; getting people to open up their Kantronics TNC to
replace it with a hacked PROM will be even more a problem. It looks like a
dead-end street to me...
>>Unless a miracle happens I don't see how APRS can ever be fixed. It's
>>FUBAR.
>
>Hmmm. I wouldn't say it's fatally broken. It is a mess no doubt but
>it's working. With better technology we'll be able to squeeze a bit
>more performance from the existing networks and better
>utilize other channels.
Yes, but as a whole it is inconsistent. In some area RELAY works, in some
not. RELAY,WIDE looks universal, but is not, and nor is RELAY,WIDE2-2. Now
we add LANn-N and LINKn-N to the mix. Then there is this neverending
dispute about ID/NOID (also Kantronics specific TNC jargon). Further more
it is fragile, individual users are capable to totally wreck the system.
Better technology exist for APRS or could be developed, but it will never
be deployed everywhere to become a consistent network that works the same
way everywhere. It is working as long as users tweak their settings while
moving from one area to the next.
I know you do a fantastic job for NWAPRS but the behavior of your network
is different than the network in California and both are different to the
network arround greater Boston or Chicago. I think the genie is out of the
bottle and it takes a miracle to get a nation wide (or even world wide)
constent APRS network.
Furthermore it is not easy to write programs for APRS. For the DX function
in DIGI_NED the stations position needs to be extracted. It is horror since
there are several formats. DIGI_NED decodes them all, regular with and
without timestamp and messaging (4 flavours), compressed (all 4 flavours),
MIC-E (old and new, with and without messaging, 4 flavours), $GPGGA,
$GPRMC, $GPGLL and maidenhead locator. That are 16 different ways to send a
position that need to be supported.
>Hmmm again. Interesting to think about taking things to a whole new
>generation.
A fresh start will at least initially create a consistent network, like
APRS was in the beginning. Maybe in about 10 years this new network also
starts to become unstable and then that needs to be replaced too. Nothing
lasts forever and I think in the lifecycle APRS is nearing end-of-life, at
least the signs look like that to me. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe I am too
pessimistic, let's hope so!
Kind regards,
Henk.
P.S. I spend all my time looking for new employment and it drains a lot of
energy. I'm sorry I can not spend much time on something new myself,
otherwise I would have joined OpenTrac quite some time ago. That is also
the reason why there is not much new going on arround DIGI_NED lately.
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Subject: Re: The APRSteward SPAM filter [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
From: David VanHorn <dvanhorn@cedar.net>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:59:09 -0500
X-Message-Number: 15
>...and the deployment problem would still be there. Getting people to swap
>their TNC-2 PROM for a free-of-charge UIDIGI PROM on a wide scale is
>already a problem; getting people to open up their Kantronics TNC to
>replace it with a hacked PROM will be even more a problem. It looks like a
>dead-end street to me...
I wasn't aware that UIDIGI was a rom. For some reason, I thought it had to
do with ui-view.
My digi is a KPC3 though, I think that lets me out.
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Subject: Re: APRS Linux digi, was: Re: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of
your DIGI part 4
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:08:41 +0200
X-Message-Number: 16
Hello Scott,
At 12:03 3-10-03 -0700, Scott Miller wrote:
>I understand computer-based digis are a lot more common in Europe... can
>someone tell me what's typically used there?
Yes, quite common. Just like PC's are used in the regular packet network on
VHF and UHF.
TNC boxes were never very popular over here. For some strange reason they
were too expensive (as many HAM equipment is). Most TNCs that are used, are
TNC-2 type clones. Kantronics TNCs are hard to find, they were way to
expensive. Most TNCs are from SYMEK (German firm), AEA/Timewave (PK88 and
PK232) or MFJ (12xx). If these TNCs are used as standalone APRS digi then a
UIDIGI PROM is put into them, otherwise they are used in KISS or 6PACK with
a PC. If you are looking for trouble put up a dumb TNC without WIDEn-N
support...
Europe came late into the APRS game, that helped and in Europe we were used
to using PC is the regular packet nodes so using a PC for a digi is not
something new or strange.
What is used is depends on the country. In the UK it are mainly UIview
based digipeaters. In the Netherlands the most are DIGI_NED, but some are
running UIview and UIDIGI. In Italy its mainly UIDIGI but also DIGI_NED and
UIview are used.
I don't much about other countries. I know there are a lot of DIGI_NED
users in Germany, France and Portugal but I don't know what the
"marketshare" is. It is a competition between UIview, UIDIGI and DIGI_NED.
I think only in the UK some also use standalone Kantronics TNCs.
Maybe some statistics can be extracted from findu. The TO address should
specify the digipeater type. One problem is that UIview users tend to muck
with the TO address, for some odd reason a lot of users use AP<suffix>, so
for PE1DNN it would become APDNN. It would be interesting to see the
percentage of digipeater types per country (or per prefix). A similar
overview per US state should also be nice.
I'm not mister know-it-all so maybe other Europeans can comment if my view
is not accurate, complete or plain wrong. I only look at it from my little
corner of the world.
Kind regards,
Henk.
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Subject: Re: The APRSteward SPAM filter [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
From: Henk de Groot <henk.de.groot@hetnet.nl>
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 23:18:47 +0200
X-Message-Number: 17
Hello David,
At 15:59 3-10-03 -0500, David VanHorn wrote:
>I wasn't aware that UIDIGI was a rom. For some reason, I thought it had to
>do with ui-view.
>
>My digi is a KPC3 though, I think that lets me out.
It is a replacement EPROM for TNC-2 type clones. It doesn't work with TNCs
with other hardware as far as I know. I don't follow their development,
maybe they support other TNC now...
Kind regards,
Henk.
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Subject: Re: The APRSteward SPAM filter [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
From: "Bill Vodall - WA7NWP" <wa7nwp@jnos.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:51:50 -0700
X-Message-Number: 18
>>Hmmm. I wouldn't say it's fatally broken. It is a mess no doubt but
>>it's working. With better technology we'll be able to squeeze a bit
>>more performance from the existing networks and better utilize other channels.
>
>Yes, but as a whole it is inconsistent. In some area RELAY works, in some
>not. RELAY,WIDE looks universal, but is not, and nor is RELAY,WIDE2-2. Now
>we add LANn-N and LINKn-N to the mix. Then there is this neverending
>dispute about ID/NOID (also Kantronics specific TNC jargon). Further more
>it is fragile, individual users are capable to totally wreck the system.
>Better technology exist for APRS or could be developed, but it will never
>be deployed everywhere to become a consistent network that works the same
>way everywhere.
This is why I'm in favor of trying out the pseudo aliases. Very very soon
now I'm going to reprogram the tracker in my car to have:
1. Universal alias of "RELAY,WIDE,WIDE". I can use that when I'm out of
the local area.
2. New pseudo alias of "RELAY,REGION". If I tweak the firmware I'll have
"RELAY,LOCAL" and then the "RELAY,REGION" less frequently.
We have just enough DIGI_NED machines in the area I frequent that this will
work.
They have pre-emptive digipeating configured so they'll pick up on the
pseudo alias of REGION even if it hears it before RELAY is used. I think
the outgoing path of a "REGION" packet will be WIDE2-2. That's something
we can adjust as we see how well it works. Other regions could define
REGION as appropriate for their area. Might be a simple WIDE or could be
WIDE5-5.
Let the science project begin.
73,
Bill - WA7NWP
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