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ZL3AI > APRDIG 05.10.03 10:29l 233 Lines 9106 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
TAPR APRS Special Interest Group Digest for Thursday, October 02, 2003.
1. Citadel PCMCIA Drivers
2. Re: [ Henk de Groot ] Re: [ Bob Bruninga ] Re: Digipeater Duplicate
Checking is broke
3. Re: New Mexico LANn-N?
4. The Human Factor [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
5. RE: Random backoff
6. Re: New Mexico LANn-N?
7. Re: The Human Factor [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
8. RE: Random backoff
9. Re: APRS Linux digi, was: Re: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of your DIGI
part 4
10. Re: [ Henk de Groot ] Re: [ Bob Bruninga ] Re: Digipeater Duplicate
Checking is broke
11. Is there more to this group than path discussions ?
12. RE: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of your DIGI part 4
13. Re: [ Henk de Groot ] Re: [ Henk de Groot ] Re: [ Bob Bruninga ] Re:
Digipeater Duplicate Checking is broke
14. Re: Even cheaper GPS receivers
15. RE: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of your DIGI part 4
16. Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
17. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
18. Re: APRS Linux digi, was: Re: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of your DIGI
part 4
19. APRS link margins and RELIABILITY
20. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
21. RE: DigiNed, was: Re: Take Control of your DIGI part 4
22. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
23. Re: Even cheaper GPS receivers
24. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
25. Re: Even cheaper GPS receivers
26. RE: Cheap GPS receivers / RS232 / Digitraveller
27. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
28. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
29. Re: Even cheaper GPS receivers
30. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
31. Re: Cheap GPS receivers / RS232 / Digitraveller
32. Re: The Human Factor [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
33. Re: Super Deal for APRS / Data Radio
34. The APRSteward SPAM filter [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
35. Re: Silk Purses
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Subject: Citadel PCMCIA Drivers
From: Dale Seaburg <kg5lt@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:47:37 -0500
X-Message-Number: 1
Does anyone remember the Citadel computers that were offered a few years
ago?
I have the drivers.zip file, but not sure what files are needed in
config.sys and autoexec.bat to make the PCMCIA slot come alive for an ATA
Flash Card.
If anyone has any experience they don't mind sharing, I'd appreciate it.
I'd like to get one of my units running with Digi_Ned and I think this unit
and a Flash Card would be a perfect fit.
Thanks for you time.
73 - Dale. KG5LT
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Subject: Re: [ Henk de Groot ] Re: [ Bob Bruninga ] Re: Digipeater Duplicate
Checking is broke
From: "Gregg G. Wonderly" <gregg@skymaster.cytetech.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 01:17:20 -0500
X-Message-Number: 2
>Hello Gregg,
>
>At 22:42 30-9-03 -0500, Gregg G. Wonderly wrote:
>>Last time we talked about fratricide, I volunteered a diagram. The important
>>detail is that if both Digis are DWAIT=0, then the area that has zero fade is
>>the place that is the RF middle between the digis. If they are equal power
>>and gain and haat, then it is smack in the middle. If I am closer to B than
>
>And then it only works if the two digis are exacly on frequency...
Henk, I was trying to say that the RF middle is the location of the worse
reception, not the best. So, whereever the RF middle is, is the place
where the originating station has to be heard direct, because "RF middle"
stations will likely not decode digi'd packets if DWAIT=0. So, if you are
not near the RF middle, and you transmit, and get digi'd, the stations in
the RF middle will not likely see your packet via the digi either...
There is a possibility for 180 degrees out of phase, as well as in phase,
and all the inbetweens. This is cheap technology, without a lot of perfect
attributes, other than the fact that the airtime is 'free' :-)
-----
gregg@cytetech.com (Cyte Technologies Inc)
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Subject: Re: New Mexico LANn-N?
From: "Ev Tupis (W2EV)" <w2ev@arrl.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:10:13 -0400
X-Message-Number: 3
Spider wrote:
>>An emergency (*SAR*) presents itself near "the firewall". Amateurs
>>from Arizona converge on the scene, only to find out that their
>>RELAY,WIDEn-N doesn't cut it. They realize that NMn-N is the thing
>>to do...but when they change to that, they lose the ability to talk
>>with Az to the west.
>>
>>What should they do? APRS is about emergency/tactical communication.
>>Somebody is going to be in a world of hurt. There's too much thinking
>>that has to take place.
>
>Hi EV!
>
>Well, depends who the comm guy is...but
<SNIP>
>I think using SAR for your example is terrible! Some form of major
>disaster would have been better! ;)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hi Jim,
The point of my post wasn't SAR, it was the fact that - with the best of
intentions - the LANn-N proposal violates basic APRS tennants, both
technically and philisophically. A point that still stands on it's own.
Ev, W2EV
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Subject: The Human Factor [was: New Mexico LANn-N?]
From: "Ev Tupis (W2EV)" <w2ev@arrl.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 06:50:47 -0400
X-Message-Number: 4
Bob Bruninga wrote:
>
>You missunderstand completely.
>Every digi still responds to RELAY and WIDE. Thus the universal path for
>mobiles would still work in NM EVERYWHERE. More comments b elow
Then LANn-N is more profoundly weaker than the existing system is. Here's
why:
You have said that the problem is W5-5, W6-6, W7-7, etc. You have said if
WIDE2-2 is good then some folks think WIDE6-6 is much better. LANn-N
forces people who think that way to now launch as W,W,W,W,W,W to get to the
"same place" (both geographically as well as philisophically) as
before...with channel obliterating results.
XXXn-N replacing WIDEn-N is bad. It firewalls the packets that don't
saturate the frequency as much, encouraging the use of packets that will
obliterate the network.
>1) If New Mexico instituted a NMn-N network, anyone in the surrounding
>APRS states who gave a HOOOT about SAR would have to be brain dead not to
>know about it.
APRS is becoming an application. We are transitioning from needing to know
the underlying network to simply wanting to use it to accomplish some goal.
This is not unlike the stream of events around client-server computing. The
users don't care about routers, switches, hubs and IP addresses. They want
to word process and send email attachments. The APRS community now has
20,000 users with an appreciable number who fit this "next phase"
mentality.
People who give a HOOT about an emergency want to focus on the emergency,
not trying to study why their tactical communication system fails to
provide them the service they need, just because the emergency event
happens to occur at a "firewall".
>2) The universal RELAY and WIDE would still work everywhere.
/humor mode on/
Cool. Then WIDE5-5 can be replaced with W,W,W,W,W. That fixes everything.
/humor mode off/
>3) And WIDEn-N could still work EVERYWHERE inside and outside the state
>(see my post about RIP-STOP digis).
Everywhere except at the "firewall". Anytime you have an exception you
invite problems to have to deal with.
Here's another one...coordination of Firewalls. Who "watches the
watchers"? LANn-N invites regionality. If NM does it at the state level,
what's wrong with SanDiego and Poway doing their own...but using different
Firewall aliases? You get one of these happening:
WIDEn-N WIDEn-N SDn-N WIDEn-N POWAYn-N WIDEn-N WIDEn-N
Someone living in SDn-N territory, needing to be seen "to the
right" may launch as one of these:
o SD1-1,WIDE1-1,POWAY1-1
o RELAY,WIDE1-1,POWAY1-1
o WIDE,WIDE,WIDE
o RELAY,TRACE2-2 (all of a sudden, this doesn't look so bad <g>)
Now, look at the world from that WIDEn-N between SD and POWAY.
eeeeeech! :)
LANn-N encourages the wrong behavior, supported by this:
>I hope that we ca continue to trust that the RELAY,WIDE is the UNIVERSAL
>APRS path that will work EVERYWHERE. That sure doesnt take a lot of
>"thinking" from my view.
And now further support for "The APRSuggester Paradigm" (renamed from the
APRSniffer system...but it's the same thing)...
>Also, anyone who would actually be worth anything to APRS anyway, would
>look at the packets on the air and see them all adddresed VIA NMn-N and
>might be smart enough to think.. Hummh... Maybe people would see me
>EVERYWHERE in NM if I did that too.
The same can be said for the existing system, but that isn't happening. The
"problem" is human-based, not technology based. APRS *needs* an on-air
system that a locality can establish, allowing them to inform users of
accepted paths, in real time and using the tactical communication tool
itself (APRS messaging).
LANn-N -- with the best of intentions -- unwittingly encourages the wrong
human behavior.
Regards,
Ev Tupis, W2EV
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