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ZL3AI > APRDIG 03.10.03 09:36l 198 Lines 7340 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 2072-ZL3AI
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 30, 15/16
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<OK0PPL<DB0RES<ON0AR<WB0TAX<N1UAN<ZL2BAU<ZL3VML
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Scott, W5JSR
From: Dale Seaburg <kg5lt@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:00:24 -0500
X-Message-Number: 76
Scott, if you are still on the list, please contact me offlist.
Thanks,
73 - Dale. KG5LT
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Subject: Re: Take Control of your DIGI part 4
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:10:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 77
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Spider wrote:
>Well, back to my other common rule.....if you are in range of a WIDE you
>should 'not' use RELAY to get to it if you can use WIDE yourself and get to
>it.
>
>There are always exceptions and 'what-if's but I would stick to this
>rule.
Absolutely, RELAY is only for mobiles, since they hem all anyway..
This packet payload traveled about 60 miles when it reached the end of
the line. From Huntsville at the RELAY to a Huntsville digi to a Scottsboro
digi to a Fort Payne digi. Do not ask me how I know this (signal strength
and knowing which stations are going to respond). I live high on a hill and
see more than most of the digi's.
Assuming the first RELAY is the only station that acts on the packet and it
only hits one digi, then that leaves the rest to the WIDE2-2 path.
Let's assume that we really have 3 digi's that respond at each DX WIDEn-N
for the sake of argument.
WIDE2-2 decrements to WIDE2-1 and hits 3 DX digi's
WIDE2-1 decrments to WIDE2 and these 3 digi's hit 3 DX digi's that do not
respond.
The math says 1 (WIDE2-1) + 3 digi's respond (WIDE2)
This equals 4 WIDEn-N digi's acting on the packet payload with another 9 total
hearing the last 3 digipeaters reponding but these 9 do not digipeat.
The total digi's involved that repond is 5 if we include the RELAY response.
Then, 9 more digi's at the end of the path hear the last 3 responding digi's.
-----------------------
Here is a real life example of RELAY,WIDE,WIDE:
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,RELAY,WIDE,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,RELAY*,WIDE,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,W4GPS-7*,WIDE,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,W4GPS-7,WIDE*,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,WC4ADG*,WIDE,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,WC4ADG,WIDE*,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,WC4ADG,W4GPS-7*,WIDE/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,WC4ADG,W4GPS-7,WIDE*/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,WC4ADG,K4GIG-7,W4SBO-7*/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
W4GPS-1>3TTT1U,W4GPS-7,W4SBO-7,K4GIG-7*/1:'rC>l (k/]"6/}
Yikes! Something is broken. This path suffers from the reality of
duplicate checking problems out the yingyang. Yes, there are many
things that can and will be fixed in the scenario, but for the sake
of argument that is the way it is in the here and now. If you really
took this example out the pipe by the factor of 3 in all directions
at each digi it would cause lots of DX packets.
Let's examine the RELAY,WIDE,WIDE route.
Assuming the first RELAY is the only station that acts on the packet and it
only hits one digi, then that leaves the rest to the WIDE,WIDE.
Let's assume that we really have 3 digi's that respond as each DX WIDE
for the sake of argument.
WIDE*,WIDE hits 3 DX digi's
WIDE,WIDE* those 3 DX digi's hit 3 DX digi's that do not respond
The math says 1 (WIDE*,WIDE) + 3 digi's (WIDE,WIDE*)
This equals 4 WIDE digi's acting on the packet payload plus another
9 that hear the last 3 digi's response.
The total digi's involed that respond is 5 if we include the RELAY response.
Then, 9 more digi's at the end of the path hear the last 3 responding digi's.
The simpliest way to visualize this is draw a diagram from some start point
and the draw out three lines from that point and each and every connecting
point to get the picture.
What do you know. RELAY,WIDEn-N and RELAY,WIDE,WIDE hit
all the same digi's in all the same directions. There is no differnece except
RELAY,WIDEn-N used 7 bytes less in the path. No big deal unless you
start multiplying that amout at each digipeater responding..
-----------------------
The point being made here is to clarify any confusion people may have
between the path that RELAY,WIDE, WIDE or RELAY,WIDEn-N
take on their journey. They both travel the same distance and the same
path if each digi supports both WIDE and WIDEn-N.
The possibility that each digi will expand out in multiples of three in each
direction may be theorethically possible but not practical in today's
network.
73's,
Tim - N8DEU
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Subject: Re: ***New*** TRACEn-N (LANn-N) Paradigm
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:13:51 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 79
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Scott Miller wrote:
>I'm just saying that people do it now. I don't want to xxxx users in
>either direction by not passing traffic through.
Sorry, that's the new paradigm. IF DX WIDEn-N is killing your LAN,
then you can take any of the 3 measures to focus it to better use in your
LAN. But it should not have an effect on anyone outside your LAN. If
they depend on trashing your LAN to get DX packets throught it... sorry,
we can no longer support that...
Or convert to a LINKn-N system aroudn your area....
>>-----Original Message-----
>> if everyone does this, how do we get packets from Southern
>> California to Northern California?
>
>The 1200 baud 144.39 channel IS ALREADY SATURATED in both Southern and
>Northern CAL. It is unrealistic to expect to propagate data reliably
>from one overloaded network to another overloaded network 300 miles
>away! The last thing each end of the state needs is more QRM from the
>other end!
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Subject: Re: Cheap GPS receivers / RS232 / Digitraveller
From: "Brian Frobisher \(H\)" <froby@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:39:15 -0700
X-Message-Number: 80
So far, amazing luck finding them in the Los Angeles area, I have "hit" two
stores and have scored both PDA and PC versions.
Some of the packaging was suspect so I left those behind.
Also snagged some voltage regulators.
Should be fun playing with them.
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Subject: Re: ***New*** TRACEn-N (LANn-N) Paradigm
From: "Georgette Sampson" <georgette.sampson@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:06:19 -0500
X-Message-Number: 81
>scott@opentrac.org writes:
>
>how do we get packets from Southern California to Northern California?
I'd recommend ROSE at 9600 baud :-) or, the Inet...
>The 1200 baud 144.39 channel IS ALREADY SATURATED in both Southern and
>Northern CAL. It is unrealistic to expect to propagate data reliably from one
>overloaded network to another overloaded network 300 miles away! The last
thing
>each end of the state needs is more QRM from the other end!
People don't want to spend money (even buying crystals has them up in
arms), and 1200 baud is never going to amount to a hill of beans. Yawn.
How about a nation-wide 19.2 kbps frequency? I propose something in the 1
GHz band, say 1299.51 at 25 kHz bandwidth. (144.390 into two sets of
triplers) :-)
Have every beacon sent with FEC in case the radar sweeps by just as you try
to receive the packet...
Jo
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