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ZL3AI > APRDIG 28.09.03 12:25l 160 Lines 9180 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 2006-ZL3AI
Read: GUEST
Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 25, 6/11
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: I guess we're going to agree to disagree Bob. Part 1 of ?
From: "Jeff Thomas - KD4EVB" <kd4evb@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:43:51 -0400
X-Message-Number: 28
Bob, don't take this personally, it's not intended that way and you've
given a great deal to APRS, believe it or not I respect your opinions but
I'm not going to agree with you just because it came from you, back it up
with real world data is becoming my mantra. Otherwise this will continue
to degenerate into something like the Republicans and the Democrats always
fussing about the other, yet neither ever offering up anything with
substance to solve the problem. To quote the gist of EVERY single response
I've gotten over this saga "Bob is so far out in left field on this he's
not even in the same city more less the same ballpark with the rest of us"
Probably wasting my time as it appears you want to argue and nitpick versus
try and understand what I'm seeing and SHOWING you versus opinions expected
to be accepted as fact with no proof Just because I say the sunis green
doesn't mean its green, I may of convinced myself that is but most know
better.
Okay here we go one last time. I may need to break this response up into
parts as it's getting lengthy on us:
"THere has always been one source of info and it has always been DIGIS.TXT
distributed with APRSdos"
WANT TO TAKE A POLL OF HOW MANY FOLKS KNOW OF IT'S EXISTANCE?
THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR TODAYS WORLD OR JUST BECAUSE ONE PERSON SAYS
THIS "IS RIGHT" JUST THE SAME AS JUST BECAUSE I SAY SOMETHING IS RIGHT
DOESN'T MEAN I'M RIGHT. YEAH THE FACT THAT EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN VERSION
OF THINGS ISN'T HELPING, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS OUT
THERE FOR SURE, NO ARGUEMENT HERE, HECK I MAY BE TALKING ABOUT MYSELF ALSO.
ALSO I'M A DIGI SYSOP, I DON'T RUN APRSDOS. MICROSOFT TELLS ME THEIR STUFF
IS THE TOTAL SOLUTION EVERY DAY AT WORK, DOESN'T MEAN I BELIEVE WHAT THEY
SAY JUST BECAUSE THEY WROTE ONE OF MANY SOFTWARE PACKAGES. NOT BASHING
APRSDOS, PLEASE DONT GET ME WRONG ON THAT, JUST MAKING A POINT.
"And I can assure you, that turning offg WIDE does NOTHING to solve that
problem. Can't you see the discrepancy in what your two paragraphs are
saying? In one, you blame WIDE, in the other, you blame all the DX
packets coming in from half a state away. That is contradictory. WIDE is
the local *first* hop. THus, it cannot be the problem of DX packets.
WIDE3-3 can bring in packets from hundreds of miles away. That is the
problem."
I PROBABLY DIDN'T WORD IT THE BEST, BUT THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION GOING ON.
THE PROBLEM IS ACTUALLY A COMBINATION OF BOTH, LOTS OF FOLKS RUNNING
MULTIPART RELAY,WIDE,WIDE, OR WORSE AND A SMALL HANDFUL OF GUYS ABUSING
WIDEN-N. THE RELAY,WIDE, WIDE OR RELAY,WIDE,WHATEVER IS CAUSING THE DUPES,
THE DX STATIONS RUNNING BIGTIME WIDEN-N PATHS ARE JUST A TINY PART OF THE
PROBLEM HERE. I CHOOSE TO TRY AND GET THE FEW WIDEN-N PROBLEM STATIONS
FIXED BY CONTACTING THEM. THE NUMBER OF FOLKS CAUSING THE DUPE FESTS WITH
RELAY,WIDE,WHATEVER ARE TOO MANY FOR ME TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE ADDRESSING VIA
EMAIL. WITH THE SOFTWARE DEFAULTING TO OLD PATHS EVERY NEW HAM COMING
ONBOARD APRS WOULD ALSO NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. AS OF THIS MORNING, I THINK
I'VE GOT EVERY PROBLEM WIDEN-N FIXED, THEY'VE GONE TO WIDE2-2 OR WIDE3-3 AND
THEIR STUFF IS STAYING UP IN THEIR AREA. LAST I CHECKED 99% IF NOT ALL OF
THE FOLKS LOCAL TO OUR DIGIS IN NKY ARE RUNNING EITHER PURE WIDEN-N PATHS OR
RELAY,WIDEN-N AND NO PROBLEM THERE.
THE PROBLEM IS THE FOLKS RUNNING OUTDATED RELAY,WIDE AND ESPECIALLY 3 PART
PATHS USING THIS ALIASES CAUSEING DUPES, THE PROBLEM STATIONS ARE SOMETIMES
ON OUR LOCAL FRINGE AND SOME ARE OUT EVEN FURTHER BEING COMPOUNDED BY OUR
TERRAIN FEATURES AND THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THE DIGIS CAN HEAR A LOT OF THE
OTHERS EVEN ONES AT . FOR THE LAST TWO MONTHS AS I LOG TRAFFIC WHEN TIME
ALLOWS AND STUDY WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON AT THE DIGI'S RF VIEW OF THINGS
(THE BEST PLACE TO SEE THE PROBLEMS IMHO), I'VE HAD WIDE ON AND THAT IS WHEN
THE GRIPING STARTED AS THE DUPES ARE HAMMERING THE CHANNEL TURNIN OFF WIDE
SOLVES THE PROBLEM DOWN HERE, SURE WE'VE STILL GO A USER WITH A BAD PATH, NO
ARGUEMENT FROM ME HERE. I DONT' WORRRY ABOUT WHAT SOME GUY HALF A STATE
AWAY IS DOING TILL HIS OPERATIONS START IMPACTING US HERE LOCALLY. I
ADMITTED IN MY EMAIL THAT IT WASN'T THE SOLE PERMANENT SOLUTION, JUST A STOP
GAP FOR THE TIME BEING, PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE WITH AN OPEN MIND, NOT
HUNTING FOR COSMETIC DESCREPANCIES. MY TYPING, GRAMMER, TRAIN
OF THOUGHT, AND SO ON WILL HAVE TO BE FORGIVEN, PLEASE.
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10*,WIDE,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:50]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:51]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,AB4WS-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:52]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KD4EVB-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KF4INN-10*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:58]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
" Wow, wrong conclusion!
No, what you are seeing here are problems with the WIDE3-3 on the end of
those packets! WIDE3-3 on the end is assuring that EVERY copy of that
packet will FLOOD the entire netowrk 5 hops in all directions! That is
every digi can hear 3 other digi's this is potentially over 94 copies of
the same packet! even if there were NO WIDE's at the begnining. Now 94
copies of a packet going to the surrounding 4 states IS THE PROBLEM!"
WOW, WE ACTUALLY AGREE THAT WAS A BAD PATH TO USE...PROGRESS...
THAT IS A 'SNIFF" OF THE CHANNEL TAKEN AT THE KD4EVB-10 DIGI'S RECEIVER,
YOU'RE SEEING EXACTLY WHAT IT'S SEEING AND TXING. IT HEARS SEVERAL OTHER
DIGI'S DIRECT, AB4WS-10 (THE CLOSEST), K8SCH-10 (A BIT FURTHER OUT), AND
W8MWO (WAY OUT, PROBABLY 75+ MILES BUT I DONT HAVE A MAP HANDY), AND A SLEW
OF OTHERS DEPENDING ON CONDITIONS WHICH VARY WIDELY AROUND THESE PARTS ON
2M. THE STATION IS INTRODUCING A PACKET WITH THE PATH OF RELAY,WIDE,WIDE3-3
TO THE SYSTEM, AT THIS POINT ONLY THE DIGI K8SCH-10 HERES IT AND DIGIS THE
FIRST PART OF THE PATH "RELAY" AND INSERTS IT'S CALLSIGN, NOW SUDDENLY
KD4EVB-10, AB4WS-10 AND W8MWO HERE A PACKET OF K8SCH-10,WIDE,WIDE3-3 NEEDING
DIGIPEATING AND SINCE ITS NOT UNDER WIDEN DUPE/LOOP CHECKING YET, THEY ALL
KEY UP WHEN THE CHANNEL IS OPEN (ANOTHER KEY VARIABLE IN THINGS) AND
RETRANSMIT IT, SINCE THEY ALL DON'T DO IT AT THE SAME TIME DUE TO
DIFFERENCES IN WHEN THE CHANNEL IS PERCIEVED AS OPEN AT EACH DIGI, IT GET
REINTRODUCED AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND NO DUPE PREVENTION IS IN PLACE TO BRING
IT UNDER CONTROL SO IT BOUNCES AROUND ALL OVER THE PLACE AND EVEN WHEN IT'S
IN THE WIDEN-N PORTION, GUESS WHAT THERES TWO TO THREE DIFFERENT PACKETS OF
THIS OUT THERE (WITH DIFFERENT CRC VALUES) SO EVEN WIDEN DOESN'T HANDLE IT
RIGHT, THERE'S NO WAY FOR DUPE CHECKING TO HANDLE ALL THE SUDDEN VARIATIONS
OF THIS THING ON THE AIRWAVES. THE DIGI'S INSERTING THEIR CALLSIGNS INTO
THE RELAY AND WIDE PORTIONS ARE MAKING IT LOOK LIKE A DIFFRENT PACKET TO THE
OTHER DIGIS FROM A CRC PERSPECTIVE.
FROM THERE WE CAN ARGUE AND SPECULATE ALL DAY ABOUT WHAT GOES ON, IT'S HARD
TO SAY HOW MANY PACKETS WERE GENERATED IN THE BURST BUT IT'S SAFE TO SAY A
LOT MORE THAN WHAT I COULD HEAR OFF ONE DIGI'S RECEIVER. THE UNDENIABLE
SIMPLE FACT IS HAD THIS STATION SIMPLY RAN WIDE3-3, K8SCH-10 WOULD OF DIGIED
IT WITH IT MARKED AS WIDE3-2 AND REMEMBERED THE CRC AND ALL SUBSEQUENT
DIGI'S WOULD OF HANDLED IT MUCH BETTER AND NO, I REPEAT NO DUPES OFF THE
SAME DIGI AS YOU SEE HERE DUE TO LOOPS BACK AROUND AND CHANNEL ACCESS TIMES
CAUSING HOLD OFF BEFORE A DIGI TX'S IT. THE OTHER FACT IS THAT THIS STATION
(NOT KNOWINGLY) LIKE SEVERAL OTHERS ARE CLOBBERING THE HELL OUT OF THE
CHANNEL AT THE DIGI LEVEL DUE TO A BAD PATH AND THE WAY 2M PROPAGATES IN OUR
AREA.
A PURE WIDEN PACKET BEING HANDLED BY PROPERLY SETUP WIDEN DIGIS
DOESN'T DUPE NORMALLY. I GUESS THAT IN OUR HIGHLY CONGESTED RF NETWORK WITH
A 28 OR 30 SECOND UIFLOOD TIMER IF ANOTHER DIGI HELD IT LONG ENOUGH (DUE TO
CHANNEL ACCESS DELAYS FOR SAY 35 SECONDS) IT COULD GET REINTRODUCED AFTER
THE CRC TIMER EXPIRED ON THE OTHER DIGI'S, BUT UNLIKELY AND EASILY CURED BY
EXTENDING THE UIFLOOD TIMER AND ONE HIGHLY DELAYED DUPE IS A LOT MORE
ACCEPTABLE THAN THE ALTERNATIVE OF LETTING RELAY,WIDE,WIDE OR WHATEVER FLOOD
THE CRAP OUT THE NETWORK. AGAIN THIS WAS THE ACTUAL VIEW FROM THE DIGI'S
PERSPECTIVE NOT A LOWER PROFILE HOME STATION, MY HOME STATION IS SO LOW
PROFILE I CAN ONLY HEAR EXTREMELY LOCALS DIRECT AND THE ONLY DIGI I HEAR IS
THE ONE, LOGGING FROM HOME WOULD NOT OF REVEALED THIS SO EASILY. THIS IS
JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF MANY STATIONS DOING SIMILAR THINGS TO THE CHANNEL, I
PICKED IT OUT JUST FOR EXAMPLE.
ON TO PART 2 I GUESS
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