| |
ZL3AI > APRDIG 28.09.03 12:22l 228 Lines 12610 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 2004-ZL3AI
Read: GUEST
Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 25, 4/11
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<DB0FSG<OE7XLR<OE9XPI<DB0CZ<DB0GV<DB0SIF<DB0EA<DB0SM<
DB0ACC<ON0RAT<ON0DXC<WA7V<WB0TAX<VK3AVE<VK7AX<ZL2BAU<ZL3VML
Sent: 030927/1334Z @:ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC #:9139 [Chch-NZ] FBB7.00i $:2004-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Part 2/2 -Re: Take Control - oh let's just go backwards
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:14:33 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 23
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Jeff Thomas - KD4EVB wrote:
>I think some reading up on the differences between RELAY,WIDE and WIDEN
>protocols is in order. Maybe we can all learn something new here,
>definitely seems to be a lot of myths and confusion out there. My Digi TNCs
>are set to a regionally approved standard setup and WIDEN standards when
>those captures were taken, nothing functionally wrong with my digi's. Yeah
>I'm about to "modify" their standard settings a bit here shortly, grin.
>They work well and work even better when WIDE is killed on them.
Using that logic, turning them off completely will make them work even
better still. The channel will be very quiet and so a lot more DX packets
can get through the area.
Please do not turn off WIDE or you are killing the fundamental LOCAL
service reliability and universality of APRS. If you are confused about
the details of this, please read DIGIS.TXT thoroughly.
>Considering the number and nature of the feedback I got, I feel pretty safe
>I'm not alone in my feelings on this topic.
But just because a lot of other people are missinformed or dont
understand how APRS is supposed to work, does not make it the RIGHT
answer... That is kind of the "media" approach to news. They report that
75% of people surveyed (who listen to their radio station) "think such and
such". That has zero quality as to whether such-and-such is true or
false. Strength or numbers of opinions, dont make right answers...
> Not everyone is using UIDIGI in
>their area on all digi's, maybe you're lucky in your area, grin. Who's to
>say what is best, Kantronics, UIDIGI, DIGI_NED, and so on, from what I
>gather they all have their pros and cons and if your user base doesn't work
>and play well together then you've still got the choice to filter or not
>filter problem makers that will not change. That could be another topic all
>together ;-)
Just think KISS. Make your local LAN work with the universal WIDE enabled
and you will have everything that APRS was designed to do. If this means
that you have to turn off WIDEn-N to keep long-haul out-of-area traffic
out of your area, then please do so. Just dont turn off WIDE...
>I think you may be right, you may have a bigger problem than you think
>depending on the terrain and digipeater layout/type your area uses. Shorter
>packets are just one of the advantages, more controled (read dupe
>prevention) is the major advantage to WIDEN. UIDIGI may of improved on
>RELAY and WIDE dupe prevention some, but like most suggestions I've seen it
>only works best if everyone is running the same parms/code and under
>controlled circumstances or it can also create issues. Of course WIDEN also
>requires some user cooperation, bad paths will break the WIDEN functionality
>and you're right back to the dupe/loop heavy WIDE stuff. Either way, we're
>still in need of a better way (protocol) to meet the inevitable challenges
>we are facing as we go into the future. In short, there's no perfect
>solution for us yet, WIDEN is just a step in the right direction. I don't
>think HOPlimit was ever implimented in WIDEN and that is the problem you've
>got with the clueless blasting out WIDE5-5 or worse up there.
No, WIDEn-N **** was **** the big step in the right direction back in 1994
when it was invented and then in 1998 when it was impolemented. But
everything that APRS has done since then is in the oppoite direction where
we can no longer tolerate WIDE4-4, 5-5, 6-6, and 7-7 traffic in most
areas. Such use is killing APRS not simply due to its QRM, but more
significantly because it is causing LOCAL well-meaning sysops to do
radical uninformed things like turn off WIDE and RELAY thinking that that
is HELPING. When it in fact is just continuing down that dead-end street
that APRS CANNOT TOLERATE EVERYONE SENDING WIDE5-5 or WIDE7-7!
And as you point out below. That was "the ultimate solution" back in 1994
when we had no APRS-IS, and we did not have 1000 digipeaters and we
did not have UI-DIGI, DIGI_NED and others. And you had to go 3 to 5
hops just to see a dozen other users... THIS IS NOLONGER TRUE.
As soon as I am over this Hurricane damage, I am going to go back and
UPDATE DIGIS.TXT to discourage the routine use of WIDEn-N in populated
areas and show how it is in general BAD for local networks...
>>From a section in the somewhat out of date (WIDEN protocol has changed A
>LOT, keen in mind that this was written awhile back before WIDEN caught on):
>http://www.aprs.net/vm/DOS/DIGIS.HTM
>
>********** WIDEn-n ALL DIRECTION GENERIC DIGIPEATING! ****************
>THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION FOR MOBILE POSITION REPORTING
>For four years, we have been asking for someone to develop the WIDEn-n
>digipeater code. The WIDEn-n digi simply repeats ANY packet with the VIA
>address of WIDEn-n; but ONLY ONCE. It keeps a copy (or checksum) of the last
>30 seconds of packets, and compares each new packet that it hears with these
>last ones to avoid dupes. This completely eliminates the multiple looping of
>packets caused by multiple generic paths such as WIDE,WIDE,WIDE. Without
>WIDEn-n, such a 3 hop path launched in the middle of 3 WIDE digipeaters that
>all hear each other can generate as many as 3x3x3 or 27 dupes! In a WIDEn-n
>network, there would only be three packets outward bound 3 hops.
>NUMBER OF HOPS: The "n" in the WIDEn-n path indicates the number of hops.
>Each DIGI that repeats the packet decrements the WIDE-SSID by one. So the -n
>decrmenets to zero but the WIDEn portion indicates the original number of
>hops so that recepients know how far it traveled. A long distance traveler
>or special event of wide interest may use up to WIDE7-7 but a local commuter
>may only want to use WIDE2-2 to limit QRM.
>SHORT PACKETS! THe biggest advantage of the WIDEn-n routing is that every
>packet still only has one DIGIpeater call. THis means only 7 bytes of
>overhead no matter how far the packet goes...
>TRACEn-n. Notice, however, that WIDEn-n packets arrive as WIDEn-0, and the
>receiver has no idea how it got to him. If the WIDEn-n digis also support
>TRACEn-n, however, then at each hop, not only does the digi decrement the n,
>but it also INSERTS ITS MYCALL. This way a TRACEn-n packet arrives a
>DIGIa,DIGIb,DIGIc,DIGId etc. Although this is very powerful, it also makes
>the packets grow significanly in length as they propogate and should only be
>used when messaging...
de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob
PCsat WEB page http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/pcsat.html
ISS-APRS FAQ: http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/iss-faq.html
CUBESAT Designs http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/cubesat.html
APRS LIVE pages http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/aprs.html
APRS SATELLITES http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/astars.html
MIM/Mic-E/Mic-Lite http://ssdl.stanford.edu/mims/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Re: Part 2/2 -Re: Take Control - oh let's just go backwards
From: "Jeff Thomas - KD4EVB" <kd4evb@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:35:08 -0400
X-Message-Number: 24
Wow, getting my **** handed to me by the god of APRS. If I've got to battle
you on this, so be it. Maybe we both are misunderstanding the other or the
like, lot of that going on with the sig's.
You know what, I may just follow your advice and turn them off completely.
There seems to be this ever evolving idea of what is right and wrong and
there seems to be no end to state of flux and the impossibility to get a
straight annswer on what standards/equipment we need to adopt, impliment and
move towards, just confusion, knee jerk reactions, personal attacks, and on
and on. I ran them that way for over a year, not a single complaint and
things were a lot more reliable compared to the last two months around here
with WIDE enabled and everything wide open (no pun intended). I didn't
make the change without a lot of long hard thinking about it. It's my
understanding that WIDE was disabled on the Dayton digi this year during the
hamfest, unfortunately I can' give you any feedback on the results as I
havent' heard any, since I didn't see any complaining going on...I assume it
worked rather well.
Frankly I'm so damn tired of listening to the locals bitch because 144.390
is damn unreliable or takes nearly half a minute before the digi can get an
open channel to move their packets out due to idiots half a state away,
trying to get to the igate is hit and miss, if the band is open hell just
kiss 2m APRS goodbye, and folks running insane or old paths that cause
dupe/looping issues. Yeap, RELAY,WIDE and RELAY,WIDE,WIDE is the solution,
see below:
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10*,WIDE,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:50]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:51]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,AB4WS-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:52]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KD4EVB-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KF4INN-10*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
01:17:58]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
I'm sure if I look thru the logs I'd find worse examples. One
RELAY,WIDE,WIDE3-3 packet owns the damn channel for 8 seconds, handful of
these and kiss the channel goodbye. IS the Kantronic's implimentation of
things the problem? What's the solution, provide some data to look at, give
us sysops some straight, clear, and data backed up scoop on the what path we
need go down. I'm so sick of a thousand opinions I could just barf. You
created this monster Bob, yeah I'm sure we did a lot of the mangling of it,
but I value your thoughts. A few years ago you were harping that we all
need to embrace WIDEn-n, now we're talking about killing it in many areas,
what the hell? Killing WIDEN in my opinion is far worse than turning WIDE
off in an areas served by all WIDEN compliant digi's (what you were wanting
not too long ago). I don't care if I impact a small percentage of folks if
it's for the better of the majority of my local users, sorry.
I'll agree to disagree with you on the WIDE, I'm only killing WIDE, not
RELAY, not TRACE, not WIDEN. WIDEN done right is the closest thing we've
got to a solution, we didn't just spend several ******* years battling along
to get everyone to get digi's converted over to WIDEn/tracen compliance.
My statement all along was not to change things due to just a few causing a
problem, try to get the few to adapt or filter their butts off at the digi's
igates. I've said all along each area is unique in it's needs and problems,
it isn't a perfect world but we should be able to come up with baselines.
Half the **** problem is we've got software writters putting out software
setup for the "lowest common denominator" paths that are early 1990's
obsolete anymore plus folks trying to mix them to come up with a "one size
fits all" solution to the path conundrum.
I've sat by and watched the various opinions and arguements float around
back and forth on the APRS sig as to how to address a problem I think we can
all admit we've got and is only going to get worse.....channel overload in
many areas. I've got a stopgap "kludge" of a temp solution for my area, but
I admit I don't have the solution I can put down in writting. I don't like
turning WIDE off, but I've either go to make the best out of what we have
around here or turn them off. Half the digi's around here are run by either
individuals or private groups committing a lot of time, money, and equipment
to APRS, all we want is some leadership, clarity and reasonable level of
reliability on the system. Apparently that is too much to ask, instead we
get the theory of the day on how to solve the issue day in and day out for
at least the last couple years, yet nothing's changed while 144.390
continues to decline.
How about we stop this fighting and attacking and get to work on solving the
**** issue with something tangible and implimentable versus opinions that
change by the week.
73 de one ****ed off Jeff, KD4EVB
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Read previous mail | Read next mail
| |
