| |
ZL3AI > APRDIG 28.09.03 12:06l 226 Lines 9760 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 2008-ZL3AI
Read: GUEST
Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 25, 8/11
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<DB0MRW<DB0SON<DB0SIF<DB0EA<DB0NOS<DB0BI<DB0FBB<DB0IUZ<
DB0GOS<DB0ACC<ON0RAT<ON0DXC<WA7V<WB0TAX<LZ3NP<YV6BTF<EA5AKC<KD4GBA<
ZL2BAU<ZL3VML
Sent: 030927/1403Z @:ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC #:9143 [Chch-NZ] FBB7.00i $:2008-ZL3AI
From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: I guess we're going to agree to disagree Bob. Part 3 of hopefully 3
From: "Georgette Sampson" <georgette.sampson@cox.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:48:43 -0500
X-Message-Number: 31
Someone suggested the digi guru's all "engineer" the problem, and I think
that's a good course of action.
Gather the data, form an argument, and then publish it.
Seems that right now, all we have published arguments with no data.
This isn't an issue worth following right now (imho).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I guess we're going to agree to disagree Bob. Part 3 of hopefully 3
From: James Smith <k9apr@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:12:40 -0500
X-Message-Number: 32
Actually Widen-n came to age, But the Author's didn't come to age with
the default's of the program...
APRS Default's by program, or least the ones I have.
APRSDos = Wide
WinAPRS = Relay,Wide
APRS+SA = Relay,Wide
APRSPoint = Relay,Wide
PocketAPRS = Relay,Wide This one is okay if your using it in a mobile.
UI-View = Relay,Wide
Notice: All the older protocol? I can't answer linux or APRSCe versions....
--
73, James, K9APR
Chairman \ Coordinator
Tri-State APRS Working Group
http://www.tawg.org
mailto:k9apr@tawg.org
Run a APRS Website? Why not join the APRS Webring. http://www.tawg.org/join.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: APRServe IPs and Ports
From: "Phil Pacier, AD6NH" <ad6nh@arrl.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:22:10
X-Message-Number: 33
On 09/24/03, ""Jason Rausch" <ke4nyv@hamhud.net>" wrote:
>Are the IP's and port numbers publiclly available for US APRS servers.
Pete's page gives you a rough idea of a couple of the ports that the
servers offer. There is really not a page that has every port definition
for every server, because that would be quite a job! One reference for the
Tier 2 servers, since 95% of our ports are aligned, is found at
http://www.aprs2.net
73
Phillip Pacier - AD6NH
socal.aprs2.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I guess we're going to agree to disagree Bob. Part 1 of ?
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:40:22 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 34
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Jeff Thomas - KD4EVB wrote:
Bob Said:
>"THere has always been one source of info and it has always been DIGIS.TXT
>distributed with APRSdos"
>
>WANT TO TAKE A POLL OF HOW MANY FOLKS KNOW OF IT'S EXISTANCE?
That is the problem. You complained that there was not one source of data
and nothing but conflicting info. My answer was as noted above, there has
always been one recommendation and it has always been consistent. All
paths should begin with RELAY for mobiles (if they need a
general-works-everywhere path) and WIDE for other stations or the
specific DIGI if there were problems with WIDE. That receommendation has
never changed since 1992.
And my conclusion was the same as yours. No body reads it. THey just
fire up and listen to whoever is making the most noise, rather than
reading it from the source...
>THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR TODAYS WORLD OR JUST BECAUSE ONE PERSON SAYS
>THIS "IS RIGHT" JUST THE SAME AS JUST BECAUSE I SAY SOMETHING IS RIGHT
>DOESN'T MEAN I'M RIGHT. YEAH THE FACT THAT EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN VERSION
>OF THINGS ISN'T HELPING, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS OUT
>THERE FOR SURE, NO ARGUEMENT HERE,
Yep, thats the problem... and they are wrecking the system by HACKING
local ill-conceived tweaks that are inconsistent with the big picture of
APRS...
>ALSO I'M A DIGI SYSOP, I DON'T RUN APRSDOS. MICROSOFT TELLS ME THEIR
>STUFF IS THE TOTAL SOLUTION EVERY DAY AT WORK, DOESN'T MEAN I BELIEVE
>WHAT THEY SAY JUST BECAUSE THEY WROTE ONE OF MANY SOFTWARE PACKAGES.
>NOT BASHING APRSDOS,
There is nothing about APRSdos in DIGIS.TXT. DIGIS.TXT describes the APRS
digipeater system, and the digipeater system has nothing to do with any
client software. It just describes how the APRS system is supposed to
work. (though as soon as our power comes back up, I am going to update it
with this turn-off-WIDEn-N option)...
In your example:
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10*,WIDE,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
>01:17:50]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
>01:17:51]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,AB4WS-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
>01:17:52]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
>01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
>01:17:53]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KD4EVB-10*,WIDE3-3 [09/13/2003
>01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,W8MWO*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
>01:17:57]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
>MASKED-12>S9PV8Q,K8SCH-10,KF4INN-10*,WIDE3-2 [09/13/2003
>01:17:58]:<UI>:`p>]l!ck/"6\}masked
Again, I say that the above problem is not a problem with RELAY,WIDE
routing but with the TOO LONG path that the originator is using. You can
beat your head against the wall and try to go after each one of the
THOUSANDS of people that are using too-long paths (as we have been doing
unsuccessfully for the last several years) or you can TAKE CONTROL of
your own local area and decide that you will fix it right-now-tonight,
and simply disable WIDEn-N digipeating on the digis that are flooding the
area...
You asked for facts. That's easy. There are 8 copies of the above
FIVE-HOP path. We both agree that's bad. Here are the facts:
MY SUGGESTION: If you disable WIDEn-N in surrounding digis then this is
what you get. FIVE POSITIVE results:
1) FOUR of the dupes go away
2) The FOUR that remain are via FOUR different digis. That is
Exactly what APRS is supposed to do. Get a copy to each digi
3) Since it is via RELAY/WIDE, then your area remains consistent
with the national recommendation
4) Mobiles traveling through your area will be fully supported.
5) 48 digipeaters SURROUNDING you will not be flooded with 48
more copies going out hundreds of miles...
YOUR SUGGESTION: Now, if you disable RELAY/WIDE, and replace it with
WIDE5-5 instead (Same number of hops), then there are STILL 5 copies that
get through. The results are ALL NEGATIVES:
1) You did NOT reduce dupes as well as the disable-n-N option did
2) You DID make your system incompatible with the national concepts
3) Mobile RELAY trackers through your area are denied ANY access
4) Your area remains fully vulnerable to FLOODING packets from any
un-informed users OUT OF AREA that continue to use long WIDEn-N
paths.
5) Your digis still contribute to 48 more copies flooding outward
for 3 more tiers of digis in all directions.
To me, I dont see how anyone can argue with these facts. Its night and
day. Using the disable-n-N option allows users to contiue to use the
national recoemmendations of RELAY or WIDE and ALSO allows them to use
WIDEn-N as much as they want. But it allows you the local sysop to
right-now-today, drop WIDEn-N in areas that are overloaded. No new
software, no new hardware, just a single TNC command.
AND a plan for the immediate future, to make sure that long WIDEn-N chains
have an IGate and possibly re-routing around the city...
As I said before. THe problem is flooding of the network beyond its
capacity by user's with too-high-expectations (and too long paths). Giving
local sysops the option of turning off WIDEn-N is a simple (why didnt we
think of this before) option... Then focusing on long chains of WIDEn-N
digis through the hinterland where they ARE needed.
Notice, I am not killing anything, I am trying to separate the local
traffic (RELAY/WIDE) from the DX so that the LOCAL traffic works better,
AND so that the long haul (WIDEn-N) ALSO works better.
>... THE UNDENIABLE SIMPLE FACT IS HAD THIS STATION SIMPLY RAN WIDE3-3,
>K8SCH-10 WOULD OF DIGIED IT WITH IT MARKED AS WIDE3-2 AND REMEMBERED THE
>CRC AND ALL SUBSEQUENT DIGI'S WOULD OF HANDLED IT MUCH BETTER AND NO, I
>REPEAT NO DUPES OFF THE SAME DIGI AS YOU SEE HERE DUE TO LOOPS BACK
>AROUND AND CHANNEL ACCESS TIMES CAUSING HOLD OFF BEFORE A DIGI TX'S IT.
True, but apples and oranges. Your counter arguemnt above said "if the
sender had used WIDE3-3, then...." But he DIDNT. He wanted a 5 hop path
and YOU cannot change that. My offering the SYSOP the option of turning
off WIDEn-N give YOU the option to immediately TAKE CONTROL of traffic in
your area. I figure this is far more valuable, than trying to continue to
educate users... That just does not work.
I'm sorry, but all of your argeuments are just TOO focused on the
occassional dupe problem of paths beginning with RELAY or WIDE and
therefore missing the point entirely. As I poined out before, a PERFECT
WIDEn-N network using WIDE5-5 will generate over 94 COPIES. That is such
an overload on the network, that arguing over 1 or 2 extra copies caused
by using RELAY,WIDE or WIDE,WIDE is just way off the issue.
The issue is simply TOO LONG PATHS.
My suggested option of letting local sysops decide to disable WIDEn-N in
local high density areas (and possibly route it around outside the cities)
as a local solution that does not kill APRS as a national system is an
idea who's time has come. And notice, it does NOT kill WIDEn-N. It just
makes it work where it is needed and prevents it from FLOODING overloaded
LANS where it is not needed.
I think once people get over the shock of it, they will see the light...
de WB4APR@amsat.org, Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Read previous mail | Read next mail
| |
