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ZL3AI > APRDIG 25.09.03 09:41l 251 Lines 9602 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : 1973-ZL3AI
Read: GUEST
Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 22, 2/7
Path: DB0FHN<DB0RGB<OK0PPL<DB0RES<DB0EEO<PI8DAZ<PI8WFL<WB0TAX<ZL3VML
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Subject: Re: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
From: "Georgette Sampson" <georgette.sampson@cox.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:23:22 -0500
X-Message-Number: 4
Consider that there was no IS path:
Is WIDE5-5 ever a valid choice?
Is APRS dependant on the Internet for proper operation?
----- Original Message -----
>
>Here is a copy of JUST the people running WIDE5-n. As you will see, many
>of this people make it to the IS in less than 1 hop and many make it in 2,
>etc.
>
>These folks can be running WIDE2-2 or WIDE3-3 or directed paths yet they
>choose to flood the network with packet after pack after packet.
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Subject: Re: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:53:04 -0500
X-Message-Number: 5
Good point. In answer to your last question, No. In answer to your
first question, let's consider no APRS-IS (or any other) backbone. What
is the effect of WIDE5-5 on the network? What are you trying to
accomplish with WIDE5-5 in your path?
If someone uses WIDE5-5 from Dallas, TX for instance, they can be
affecting local networks 500+ miles away in ALL directions! Not only
that, but because of the visibility many WIDEn-n digipeaters in the area
have with each other, they are effectively blocking other packets for an
extended period of time (the WIDEn-n digipeater isn't going to walk all
over other WIDEn-n digipeaters that it sees).
We do have a backbone system in place (APRS-IS in most places, but other
backbones can be used as well). APRS is a single frequency UI protocol
which limits reliable communications to short distances when using
generic aliases. Regardless of whether a backbone is in place or not,
long paths such as WIDE5-5 and TRACE5-5 only add to the QRM in areas
where local activity is already near saturation. If you want to have
reliable communications over long distances, IMHO APRS in most areas is
not the mode to use, especially if you try to use the generic WIDEn-n or
TRACEn-n aliases. If you want to have reliable communications in a
local area, APRS is a great tactical protocol.
73,
Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete@ae5pl.net
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Subject: Another Perspective [was:Excessive Paths - WIDE5]
From: "Ev Tupis (W2EV)" <w2ev@arrl.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:49:43 -0400
X-Message-Number: 6
Georgette Sampson wrote:
>
>Consider that there was no IS path:
>
>Is WIDE5-5 ever a valid choice?
>
>Is APRS dependant on the Internet for proper operation?
The answers to these questions depend on what you are using APRS to
accomplish. There is no one rule. Instead, each person must use "Good
Amateur Practice" to determine the best path to select.
We, as Amateurs, should be willing to ask others "why" they are using a
particular path. We should also be willing to accept such inquiries
without a "chip on the shoulder". The answers may surprise you. Along the
way, both the asker and the answerer may gain insights that will allow all
to coexist.
For what it's worth, on APRS' PropNET network on 147.585 MHz (growing
across New York state and looking to enter Ontario Canada soon...on it's
way to Michigan), typical home stations set their TX interval to "9999"
minutes! It's the digipeaters that TX once ever 5 minutes with an
effective path of RELAY,TRACE4-4. Why? Because the purpose of APRS'
PropNET network is to track 2m propagation and the digi's are at altitude,
with high power to do just that. The channel load is light so that the DX
can get through. Participants issue an "?APRS?" to see who else is
lurking, and can engage keyboard to keyboard QSO's using WIDEn-N.
So...we have a real-world example of APRS where the rules are all different
(because the goal is different).
"Good Amateur Practice" always prevails whenever engaging our transmitters.
We need "rules" only when G.A.P. is intentionally ignored and the enjoyment
of others is impacted. :))
Regards,
Ev Tupis, W2EV
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Subject: Re: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
From: "Roy Bost" <rbost@itexas.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:12:03 -0500
X-Message-Number: 7
I don't know from "backbones" , "Clients", etc.. When we set up our local
APRS net, our goal was to have reliable mobile Skywarn communications via
radio. With the three digis that I have in place, we have better APRS
coverage than we do voice communications. Our goal is to have our Skywarn
mobiles seen by the NWS up in Ft. Worth!
We have had our controllers relay messages by voice to the NWS and from the
NWS via APRS to one of our Skywarn mobiles (most of whom run with laptops
when storm chasing). To accomplish this goal of reliable communication with
the NWS, we will use what ever path necessary. Heck, we've even been known
to set the MYA to RELAY in our mobiles (not a normal setting) so that the
outriders can even get to a digi!
As to the internet interface, I don't know of anyone in our area (40 miles
SW of Ft Worth) that connects their APRS station to the internet (APRS IC?).
Our mobile path Relay, Wide3-3 or home path of digi(named), Wide3-3 seems
to serve us well. There are some down here that feel that this sig has
become more about Internet interfacing than radio interfacing.
My opinion only.
Roy Bost N5TAM
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Subject: Re: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
From: "AE5PL Lists" <HamLists@ametx.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:17:27 -0500
X-Message-Number: 8
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roy Bost [mailto:rbost@itexas.net]
>Posted At: Monday, September 22, 2003 10:16 AM
>Subject: [aprssig] Re: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
>
>APRS net, our goal was to have reliable mobile Skywarn
>communications via
>radio. With the three digis that I have in place, we have better APRS
>coverage than we do voice communications. Our goal is to
>have our Skywarn
>mobiles seen by the NWS up in Ft. Worth!
K5FTW-5 (WIDEn-n digi) sees all of your digis. The NWS office in Ft. Worth
sees everything from K5FTW-5. So, you have solid coverage with RELAY,WIDE
or RELAY,WIDE2-2 from your mobile to the NWS. The NWS does not track
mobile stations. They do, however, track weather stations and you can
message them if they have an operator manning their APRS station. However,
they currently use APRS as a secondary means of communication to voice nets
as they do not act as net control and are concentrating on reports received
rather than trying to communicate with individual operators.
>when storm chasing). To accomplish this goal of reliable
>communication with
>the NWS, we will use what ever path necessary. Heck, we've
See above regarding what path is necessary without disrupting all of the
other Skywarn activities in the DFW area.
>As to the internet interface, I don't know of anyone in our
>area (40 miles
>SW of Ft Worth) that connects their APRS station to the
>internet (APRS IC?).
There is a 24/7 IGate in SW Ft. Worth which is gating all of your packets
to APRS-IS seen via N5YXO-1 or K5FTW-5.
>Our mobile path Relay, Wide3-3 or home path of digi(named),
>Wide3-3 seems
>to serve us well. There are some down here that feel that
>this sig has
>become more about Internet interfacing than radio interfacing.
And with those paths, you are interfering with activities in Dallas,
Denton, and Collin counties, 100+ miles away (and in Waco and Austin, as
well). The network topology has changed and adjustments by individual
groups should be made to reduce long distance QRM.
73,
Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete@ae5pl.net
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Subject: Sioux Falls Digi going off-air
From: "Mark Fellhauer" <sparkfel@qwest.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:19:19 -0500
X-Message-Number: 9
Sometime in the next 7 to 10 days the Sioux Falls APRS digipeater
(KC7BXS-2) will be going off-air permanently.
Sioux Valley Hospital is turning my neighborhood into a parking lot, and
they made my landlord "an offer he can't refuse" so I am losing my
apartment.
I hate moving, and If I'm going to move it's going to be a BIG move.
Tentative plans are to move to Fallbrook, CA at the end of the month.
The Sioux Falls digi has been operational for almost 5 years. I hope
someone else will take up the cause and replace it.
73,
Mark
KC7BXS
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Subject: Fw: Excessive Paths - WIDE5
From: "Bill Vodall WA7NWP" <wa7nwp@jnos.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:17:52 -0700
X-Message-Number: 10
>>Here is a copy of JUST the people running WIDE5-n. As you will see, many
>of
>>this people make it to the IS in less than 1 hop and many make it in 2,
>etc.
>>These folks can be running WIDE2-2 or WIDE3-3 or directed paths yet they
>>choose to flood the network with packet after pack after packet.
>>
>>If your call is in this list, I sure hope you consider reducing your
>paths.
You cannot make a general "nation wide" statement about paths. When
something like WIDE3-3 is excessive in one area, a path like WIDE5-5 might
be not only acceptable but actually desireable in other areas. It's up to
each community and the number of active stations there to decide what the
recommended path needs to be.
The distance to the IS has nothing to do with the community "RF network"
conventions.
Bill - WA7NWP
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