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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.09.03 09:07l 310 Lines 13018 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: TAPR Digest, Sep 18, 1/5
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From: ZL3AI@ZL3VML.#80.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
TAPR APRS Special Interest Group Digest for Thursday, September 18, 2003.
1. RELAY,WIDE,WIDE Etc. Wrong...
2. xastir help needed
3. RE: sar/aprs software
4. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
5. La Crosse Technology WX Stations
6. Re: Digi Range Experiment
7. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
8. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
9. DigiTraveler owners
10. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
11. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
12. RE: sar/aprs software
13. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
14. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
15. RE: sar/aprs software
16. RE: sar/aprs software
17. RE: sar/aprs software
18. RE: sar/aprs software
19. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
20. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
21. RE: sar/aprs software
22. RE: sar/aprs software
23. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
24. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
25. RE: sar/aprs software
26. RE: sar/aprs software
27. Isabel and APRS weather
28. Re: Isabel and APRS weather
29. Re: Isabel and APRS weather
30. RE: Isabel and APRS weather
31. Re: WB4APR's typing
32. RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving
33. Re: Isabel and APRS weather
34. Re: Isabel and APRS weather
35. via pcsat
36. RE: Isabel and APRS weather
37. : WB4APR's typing
38. UIDWAIT and DWAIT settings
39. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
40. Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
41. RE: Proper DIGI ID interleaving
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Subject: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE Etc. Wrong...
From: "Dick Stanich" <dick@kb7zva.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 1:21:2
X-Message-Number: 1
On 09/17/03, ""Spider" <spider@rivcom.net>" wrote:
>I'll give you just one example that happened last week.
>
>A station (mobile) in Yuma was set to WIDE,WIDE2-2 which is considered a
>reasonable setting in these parts. For technical reasons between this
>station and the local Yuma WIDE digi, he could not get into it. I contacted
>two parties in Yuma that would be 'experts' in Yuma to find out why we were
>not seeing him a couple hops away when we knew we should. We did confirm he
>had a technical problem between his station and the WIDE node.
>HOWEVER, in order to make it work, it was suggested he run RELAY,WIDE2-2
>because there are two low level RELAY digis that would allow a path to the
>WIDEn-n digi!
>
>This is a PERFECT example of how RELAY should work. If the station can hit
>a WIDE without the need for a RELAY then using RELAY only adds packets and
>is certainly NOT needed!
Bull <g>
Since I am one of the 'experts' you are referring to... you tell an
interesting story, so here's mine <g>. That mobile is a fixed station.
Hasn't moved since he showed up in Yuma several weeks ago. His location is
in a hole and does not have a very effective shot at the 2 wide digis that
cover our area.
His first problem was xmitting position reports every 30 seconds. When I
went to visit him, he had no idea what was going on... as someone else
programmed his tracker. He decided to just turn the tracker off until he
could figure out how to set it correctly. When turning the tracker off and
I was leaving... someone drove up and was trying to find 'the xmitter that
was stuck in xmit mode'. It was the same guy... whenever he turns off the
tracker the radio keys up at 50 watts <g>.
During the past week he has made the same mistake twice. Once it was keyed
up for 3 hours, and he wasn't home. I haven't had much time to sit down
with him and explain how the local network works. I did give him print-outs
as to what has going on. He didn't seem to be interested at that moment, as
we both were very distracted playing with his computers. I had fun with the
visit and he welcomed the fact that someone took the time to tell him he
was screwing up the network.
His location is less than 3 miles from my Igate. All of his position
reports are picked up fine and sent to the internet. Look at his raw data
on findU (w7src-10).
Yuma has 3 low level RELAYS, one is 1 mile from his location. My Igate
hears him direct. The BLACK digi is a RELAY, WIDEn-N and TRACEn-N, about 35
miles away. All local stations get to it. The network plan in Yuma works
great and is well designed. He doesn't need to run RELAY as a fixed
station. Especially if the Igate hears him direct.
It would seem to me that if you wanted to re-broadcast his position in
Havasu 97 miles away, your own Igate could handle that, or his HOMEPORT
could do the same.
As it stands, there are 3 Igates in his path of RELAY,WIDE2-2. There were a
lot more when he ran WIDE,WIDE2-2. I do admit, that in his case... because
he is in the mud... RELAY does help. RELAY,WIDE will get his position
reports to 2 digis, one is 116 miles away! And he still is heard by 2
Igates. One in Yuma and the other in San Diego.
If someone runs RELAY, it is like training wheels and should be used until
the local architecture is learned.
Also, study the Southwest network architecture yourself. RELAYS are used
and are very effective for travelers. 'MOST don't use RELAY' doesn't apply
to the Southwest or Yuma in particular. Our local area network design is
based on excellent Igate coverage, the proper use of low level RELAY
stations (3), and effective digipeaters (2), a WX station, NTS station, and
super cooperation from everyone on APRS. What I like is that we are a small
community and can yell at each other :) Everyone is on the same page and
all use UI-View32. And YES, APRSWest.net (Tier 2 Server) is also based in
Yuma.
There are few people in this area that share in your insight and intuition
on APRS. However, in this case, I'll have to say that RELAY is the
short-term solution. Long term will happen with this ham, over coffee when
we both aren't distracted by... 'who has the most toys wins' or someone
trying to guess on our local network design, which is very different from
your own. Besides I like 'guru' over 'expert', it's more venerable :)
Dick, KB7ZVA
APRSWest.net
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Subject: xastir help needed
From: "Andrew Rich" <vk4tec@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:50:10 +1000
X-Message-Number: 2
Hi,
I have had a map work with findu.com it is a geo and gif
I changed the gif to xpm.
FILENAME brisbane.xpm
TIEPOINT 0 0 152.667833333333 -27.299
TIEPOINT 1588 1077 153.345 -27.706
I cannot for the life of me get xastir to see it.
/usr/local/xastir/maps/brisbane.xpm (chmod 777)
/usr/local/xastir/maps/brisbane.geo (chmod 777)
ideas ?
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Subject: RE: sar/aprs software
From: "Bob D." <n2iph@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:52:17 -0400
X-Message-Number: 3
>Could any of you magic software developers...put something in the APRS
>program that will show where the missing person is. That would save a
>great deal of hassle for everyone!!! lol
This can be easily accomplished as soon as everyone on the planet has an
embedded tracker device inserted under their skin. :-)
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Subject: Re: RELAY,WIDE,WIDE
From: Bob Bruninga <bruninga@usna.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:56:57 -0400 (EDT)
X-Message-Number: 4
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Spider wrote:
>>If they would let mobiles use RELAY correctly and turn maybe half of their
>>digipeaters into local, lower, shorter range RELAY-ONLY digi's, then that
>>would go a long way towards *reducing* overall packets on the system.
>
>Exactly Bob! It works that way here where I am and it works in nearby
>communites as well... It DOES NOT reduce packets however, it creates more.
>
>The concept is to use RELAY only if you can not hit a WIDE by yourself or
>are only needing to cover the relay's area. The problem....There can be 30
>RELAYs that hear you!!!
That seems impossible if RELAY is used correctly. It would seem the only
way that can happen is:
1) If home stations with good locations are transmitting via RELAY and
hitting other home stations (violates the rule of home stations should not
use RELAY)
2) If home stations on hilltops and mountain tops within mobile range of
other digis are set up as RELAY stations (violates the rule that home
stations should not be RELAY if they hear (direct) mobiles that are also
easily in range of other digis.
3) If there are too many digis with too much overlaping coverage.
>Same principle of my use of SAR to cover a specific local area without
>going wide but there can be dozens of RELAYS!!!!
>However the use of a 'special name' makes it better because I do not sound
>off all the RELAY digis using SAR or any other special name for local
>tactical communications!. You seemed not to understand that a few weeks
>ago! If a digi uses the name FRED and I only wanted to cover FRED's area
>then I sould use FRED in my path. It is a Local issue and locals would
>decide that, regardless of the RELAY, WIDE, TRACE national plan.
Yes, as long a RELAY and WIDE are covered, then there are two more UIDIGI
names that are availabe and I think your idea of SAR or any other local
name is a good idea...
>Mobiles using RELAY in our are only add more packets to the
>channel...period. There are enough digi's doing WIDE and WIDEn-n that
>hear these mobiles WITHOUT the need for RELAY!
Then we need to encourage local mobiles not to use RELAY. But dont
disable RELAY at the digipeaters... because that wouild be cutting off
the state from people passing through from other areas.
>IMHO the ONLY time you should use RELAY is if you can not directly reach a
>WIDE or WIDEn-n. Then and only then should you use RELAY!
Yes, we agree completely. All we need to do is to get the users to
understand that.
>It just add more packets to an already busy channel! Very few cases in the
>Southwest USA where you would need to run RELAY.
>
>Bob, I do not know how to tell you this....no it does not help mobiles. And
>'mobiles' have absoulutely nothing to do with the equation!
>RELAY helps those stations that are not able to directly reach a WIDE or
>WIDEn-n due to poor path caused by bad location, very low power or whatever.
Which in most cases are mobiles or HT's. Not only due to their low HAAT,
but also due to the mobile flutter that reduces their effective range by 6
to 10 dB or more.
>If a station...Mobile or otherwise can directly hit WIDES and WIDEn-n's then
>why on earth suggest they use RELAY that will only add dozens and dozens of
>more packets on the air from low level stations that CAN reach a WIDE or
>WIDEn-n.
We agree completely. If stations can hit digis dierectly then there is no
need to use RELAY.
>Suggesting RELAY in the SOUTHWEST USA is just absoulutely NUTS!
Good point. I'll try to mention an exception for areas with 100% WIDE
coverage and that mobiles should not use RELAY routinely in those areas.
We just need to educate the users that way. But then we need to be
careful not to condem some long distance traveler that drives through your
state and is still set to RELAY. This is why you still need to support
RELAY at the digis.
>I'll give you just one example that happened last week.
>
>A station (mobile) in Yuma was set to WIDE,WIDE2-2 which is considered a
>reasonable setting in these parts. For technical reasons between this
>station and the local Yuma WIDE digi, he could not get into it. I contacted
>two parties in Yuma that would be 'experts' in Yuma to find out why we were
>not seeing him a couple hops away when we knew we should. We did confirm he
>had a technical problem between his station and the WIDE node.
>HOWEVER, in order to make it work, it was suggested he run RELAY,WIDE2-2
>because there are two low level RELAY digis that would allow a path to the
>WIDEn-n digi!
>
>This is a PERFECT example of how RELAY should work. If the station can hit
>aWIDE without the need for a RELAY then using RELAY only adds packets and
>is certainly NOT needed!
>
>My Igate is also a RELAY digi...Why? Because if someone in my area can not
>hit one of 4 nearby mountaintop WIDES then my station can help him get out.
>It would be a really rare case for the need of RELAY in my area.
>But if a mobile running 5 watts comes through the area running RELAY in the
>path....well, I still digi him but is just plain nuts when he can hit the
>WIDEs himself!
Problem is a lot of the stand-alone trackers are not easy to change on
the fly and secondly distant traveling mobiles dont know the local
changing "rules" as they drive...
>I would not ever suggest mobiles in the southwest USA to ever run RELAY.
OK, I agree to not be so blanket in my recommendations. This is true.
RELAY,WIDE2-2 is in general good for most areas that do not have saturated
DIGI coverage. And the Southwest certainly does have the best digis in
the country.
>They just be adding to the mess. And that is not to say that there should
>not be RELAY digi's to take care of those that really need RELAY, as in my
>example above.
thanks. I'll be more careful...
Bob
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