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PA2AGA > HDDIG 20.06.00 01:30l 241 Lines 7334 Bytes #-9437 (0) @ EU
BID : HD_2000_169D
Read: GUEST
Subj: HamDigitalDigest 2000/169D
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Sent: 000619/1743Z @:PI8HGL.#ZH1.NLD.EU #:53008 [Den Haag] FBB $:HD_2000_169D
From: PA2AGA@PI8HGL.#ZH1.NLD.EU
To : HDDIG@EU
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 17:50:39 MET
Message-Id: <hd_2000_169D>
From: pa2aga@pe1mvx.ampr.org
To: hd_broadcast@pa2aga.ampr.org
X-BBS-Msg-Type: B
case of *any* 8 bit code on HF, the FCC has said it will not enforce the
7 bits restriction. There can be no case.
> Even if the FCC states that Pactor II is legal (and I am not sure whether it
> has made such a statement), a US court could rule that use of Pactor II by
> US Hams is illegal under the law IF the all the "technical characteristics"
> of the Pactor II protocol were never documented publicly.
Well, when you get done with your "what if" screen-play, let us see the
final script.
> I wonder whether the FCC has even seriously considered the matter.
Yes they have. They seriously don't care. They have very limited funds
to spend on hobby spectrum enforcement.
Get on with your life...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:20:10 -0400
From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@erols.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
> Seriously, I do not think any US court has considered whether
> Pactor II is legal under the law as presently written.
>
I do not think any US court has considered whether any SSB is legal
under the law as presently written.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:49:48 GMT
From: hamish@cloud.net.au (Hamish Moffatt VK3SB)
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
Seth Miller <sethmiller73@email.com> wrote:
> Please note that in the prior message I meant to say "in the public domain",
not
> "publicly documented", as the latter is indeed a requirement (met in every
SCS
> PTC-II owners manual).
The PTC-II owners' manual does not qualify as public documentation!
> I think the real underlying question here is... what you guys got against
this mode
> anyway?
It's proprietary.
Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:46:44 GMT
From: hamish@cloud.net.au (Hamish Moffatt VK3SB)
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com> wrote:
> There is enough freely available public information on PACTOR II
> for me to build a decoder.
OK, but when I asked you to tell me where to find it, you
told me I would need to reverse engineer it?
Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:45:52 GMT
From: hamish@cloud.net.au (Hamish Moffatt VK3SB)
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Seth Miller wrote:
>> The fact that a protocol is proprietary or patented does not make it
>> illegal on the amateur bands; I'm not sure where you got that idea.
> Maybe Canadian rules are different?
Do I look like a Canadian to you? :-)
My understanding was that you (being FCC-governed licensees) could use
any protocol which was publicly documented. Am I incorrect?
Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:12:26 -0500
From: CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB wrote:
> My understanding was that you (being FCC-governed licensees) could use
> any protocol which was publicly documented. Am I incorrect?
The FCC has interpreted the rules more liberally than that
recently. TAPR might have the statement on their web page.
I can't remember exactly where I read it.
--
73, de W6RCA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:31:21 -0400
From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@erols.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
> I think the real underlying question here is... what you guys
> got against this mode anyway?
>
> It's proprietary.
>
So is Pactor-I, G-TOR, Clover, and Clover-II.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:49:57 -0400
From: "Bob Lewis" <aa4pb@erols.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
> My understanding was that you (being FCC-governed licensees)
> could use any protocol which was publicly documented.
> Am I incorrect?
>
That is correct. The FCC makes no statement as to the level of public
documentation nor where it must be made available to be considered
publicly documented. Since SCS has the manual available on their web
page I would think that qualifies as public enough. I believe the
FCC's intent is to ensure that transmissions are not encrypted in
order to prevent others from monitoring the content (not to ensure
that anyone can build a decoder from the documentation). Anyone who
wants to monitor a Pactor-II transmission can simply purchase a PTC-II
so there is no intent to encrypt the transmissions with Pactor-II.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:24:04 -0500
From: CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB wrote:
>
> CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > There is enough freely available public information on PACTOR II
> > for me to build a decoder.
>
> OK, but when I asked you to tell me where to find it, you
> told me I would need to reverse engineer it?
The modulation method is publically defined so basic decoding
is easy. Knowing the input data and the raw decoded wireless
data, one can determine the character level protocol. I personally
don't see much difference in engineering something and reverse
engineering something. It's all just an engineering problem
to be solved. Have you checked for any patent information?
--
73, de W6RCA
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jun 2000 19:11:01 -0700
From: Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 <faunt@netcom.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
hamish@cloud.net.au (Hamish Moffatt VK3SB) writes:
>
> Seth Miller <sethmiller73@email.com> wrote:
> > Please note that in the prior message I meant to say "in the public
domain", not
> > "publicly documented", as the latter is indeed a requirement (met in every
SCS
> > PTC-II owners manual).
>
> The PTC-II owners' manual does not qualify as public documentation!
>
> > I think the real underlying question here is... what you guys got against
this mode
> > anyway?
>
> It's proprietary.
>
Just to satisfy the letter of the law, the ARRL has published a small
book with adequate descriptions of a number of different protocols.
I can't locate my copy right now, so you'll have to look it up for
yourself on the ARRL web site.
It's not free. I also believe the PTC Owners Manual does qualify,
since it's readily available from SCS, or Farallon here in the US.
And in fact, is available for free download from the SCS web site.
It's not in your local newspaper, that's true, or even your national one.
73, doug
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:17:55 -0500
From: CAM <W6RCA@mindspring.com>
Subject: Hottest and fastest HF mode
Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 wrote:
> Just to satisfy the letter of the law, the ARRL has published a small
> book with adequate descriptions of a number of different protocols.
> I can't locate my copy right now, so you'll have to look it up for
> yourself on the ARRL web site.
Those ARRL publications are: "HF Digital Handbook" and "Technical
Descriptions, CLOVER, G-TOR PACTOR, PACTOR II, PSK31"
73, de W6RCA
------------------------------
To be continued in digest: hd_2000_169E
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