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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.03.07 09:05l 296 Lines 12649 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thomas t <hamaddict2001_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: [aprssig] Does anyone have a fix for the intermittant tone
encoder on the TH-d7ag 70cm side?
Does anyone have a fix for the 70cm tone encoder problem on the TH-D7ag?
Every rig I have tested has had the problem, but I don't think I have
tested any rigs manufactured in 2006 or latter. The problem was also
reported on European d7ags.
This problem prevents me from using the d7ag as a rig because my club's
repeater is on 440 and uses TSQ.....the tone encoder problem makes me drop
out too much.
Kenwood is aware of the design defect, but has no fix. My ht died on the
operating table at home during my own work after Kenwood's 3 attempts at
fixing the problem with some experiments amounted to naught. I was
frustrated with Kenwood, but I guess they did try. I would buy the rig
again if current production doesn't have the problem, although last year I
tested one at a local shop and it too had the problem.
In case you aren't familiar with the tone encoder problem on 70cm, you can
experience it by following this procedure:
1. Set a second radio (I used a Yaesu FT-817) to 446.000mhz WITHOUT TONE
SQUELCH SET.
2. Set the TH-D7A(G) to transmit on 446.000mhz with tone encoder set to a
tone of 136.5.
3. While holding down the PTT on the TH-D7A(G), lightly tap your palm
against the face of the radio as if you were clapping your hands repeatedly
(or tap your fingers hard repeatedly on the face of the TH-D7A(G)), LISTEN
TO THE SECOND RADIO AND HEAR YOUR FINGERS TAP THE TH-D7A(G)- NO PROBLEM.
Now go to step 4.
4. Set the second radio (I used a Yaesu FT-817) to 446.000mhz WITH TONE
SQUELCH SET TO 136.5.
5. While holding down the PTT on the TH-D7A(G), lightly tap your palm
against the face of the radio as if you were clapping your hands repeatedly
(or tap your fingers hard repeatedly on the face of the TH-D7A(G)), LISTEN
TO THE SECOND RADIO AND YOU WILL NOT HEAR YOUR FINGERS TAP THE TH-D7A(G)
REPEATEDLY BECAUSE THE SECOND RADIO'S SQUELCH WILL BE CLOSED OR WILL CLOSE
INTERMITTENTLY.
Thanks for your input,
Tom- N2YTF
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:10:33 -0400
From: Rich Mulvey <aprs_at_mulveyfamily.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Re: D700 bugs
Keith VE7GDH wrote:
>Mark WA2MCT wrote...
>
>>There are no bugs in the D700. It is the perfect APRS mobile radio.
>>If it doesn't do what you want or need, you're using APRS incorrectly.
>>At least that's what a guy with APR in his call claims! :-)
>>I'd certainly welcome some improvements.
>
>Lemme see... it doesn't do SmartBeaconing. Not a factor for stand-alone use,
>but the small buffer is sometimes a big problem in KISS mode. Then there's
>the male DB-9 (DE-9) connector on it. I wouldn't turn down a D700 if you
>gave me one, but see the HamHUD for improvements. I'm sure the D710A
>will be a step up from the D700, but I'm also sure it will leave room for
>improvement too!
Well, based on the images, it doesn't seem like there's any DB9 of any
gender, so you should be happy with that. ;-)
I presume that one of the PS/2-style connectors on the back has serial
lines. Oh goody, another non-standard adapter I'll need to keep track
of...
I certainly hope Smart Beaconing is in the firmware. And a TNC that can
handle real packet traffic in KISS mode. It will be well-nigh insane not
to include them after all these years, considering the advances in
microcontroller technology. And I don't need to mention, I'm sure, that it
had better be flash-upgradable...
- Rich
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:56:54 -0700
From: "David Flood" <davidf4_at_mindspring.com>
Subject: [aprssig] D710A ports - was Re: D700 bugs
According to the test results document, they used a 6 pin mini-DIN for the
jack marked PC
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=76
8512&native_or_pdf=pdf
Page 6 has the ports list. Also from the ports list and the hook-up
diagrams that follow, it also looks like the GPS plugs into a 1 pin (gotta
be a typo) mini-jack on the head.
Also, doesn't look good for firmware upgradeable because the cover letter
says that it can't be hardware or software modified. So I'm guessing the
infamous green wire is also gone.
Dave
KD7MYC
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 21:00:41 -0700
From: "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh_at_rac.ca>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Does anyone have a fix for the intermittant
tone encoder on the TH-d7ag 70cm side?
Tom N2YTF wrote...
>5. While holding down the PTT on the TH-D7A(G), lightly tap your palm
>against the face of the radio...
Are you saying that if you tap the D7 or clap near it, it stops transmitting
the subaudible tone?
73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 23:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thomas t <hamaddict2001_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Does anyone have a fix for the intermittant
tone encoder on the TH-d7ag 70cm side?
Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh_at_rac.ca> wrote:
>Are you saying that if you tap the D7 or clap near it, it stops transmitting
>the subaudible tone?
Yes, the tone stops momentarily, but only on 70cm. Although you seem to
have misunderstood the clap test. I mean you can clap the palm of your
hand against the rig and cause the problem. You do not have to clap hard,
just clap your hand down lightly.
That you can cause the problem by following the procedure is not what I am
concerned with, that is just a test so you can observe the problem in a
somewhat controlled setting.
The problem is that this dropout also happens fairly randomly while talking
into the ht. I first noticed there was a problem while talking on the ht
and walking along within half a mile of and with line of sight to my clubs
repeater. The motion of me walking plus the volume of my voice would
combine to make me drop out somewhat randomly. If I whispered and did not
move I could minimize, but not eliminate the problem, but then I was
inaudible and still would drop out. Some hams I have spoken to could not
figure out why they were in and out from their mobiles while running 5w to
a good sized roof mounted antenna well within range of their
repeaters.....then when they tested their d7ag rigs they also found that
the tone encoder on 70cm was their problem.
Again, the problem only occurs on 70cm, and I do not know if the tone drops
out or is just somehow improperly modulated for a moment. Either way, the
d7ag screen does not reflect any problem, you have to test the rig against
a second receiver. The problem happens much less frequently if the d7ag is
connected to a dummy load. To observe the problem, use a rubber duck
I have not been able to develop a fix.
73,
Tom- N2YTF
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:31:29 +0100
From: "Jan T. Pharo" <la2bba_at_jpharo.net>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] TM-D710A? is TH-D7a(g) MKII on the way?
Thomas t <hamaddict2001_at_yahoo.com>, Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:46:27 -0700
(PDT):
>Does anyone know what the difference is between the Kenwood TM-D710A...
>and the D700?
It's probably complying with the ban on lead-based solder, which for the
time being is prohibiting the sale of TM-D700 in Europe (since
approximately a year back)
--
73 de Jan, LA2BBA
Hvaler, Norway
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:09:48 -0700
From: "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh_at_rac.ca>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Does anyone have a fix for the intermittant
tone encoder on the TH-d7ag 70cm side?
Tom N2YTF wrote...
>The problem is that this dropout also happens fairly randomly while
>talking into the ht. I first noticed there was a problem while talking on
>the ht and walking along within half a mile of and with line of sight to
>my clubs repeater. The motion of me walking plus the volume of my
>voice would combine to make me drop out somewhat randomly. If I
>whispered and did not move I could minimize, but not eliminate the
>problem, but then I was inaudible and still would drop out. Some hams
>I have spoken to could not figure out why they were in and out from
>their mobiles while running 5w to a good sized roof mounted antenna
>well within range of their repeaters.....then when they tested their
>d7ag rigs they also found that the tone encoder on 70cm was their problem.
>
>Again, the problem only occurs on 70cm, and I do not know if the tone
>drops out or is just somehow improperly modulated for a moment. Either
>way, the d7ag screen does not reflect any problem, you have to test the
>rig against a second receiver. The problem happens much less frequently
>if the d7ag is connected to a dummy load. To observe the problem, use
>a rubber duck I have not been able to develop a fix.
OK, I've got it now. It went through my mind that it could be a problem
with high SWR and RF getting back into the rig and messing up the CTCSS
encoder, you but said "it happens less frequently if connected to a dummy
load". Unless you have a bad match on your dummy load, it would tend to
rule it out as being an RF related problem. I'm leaning towards it being an
audio level / mechanical problem, but if that was 100% true, going to the
dummy load shouldn't have made any difference.
Here are some things you could try. First talking into it and tapping on
both mechanical energy, but with a bit of troubleshooting, you might be
able to determine if the problem occurs because of something mechanical
(talking loud or tapping it) or if it's something else. If you could obtain
a connector the same as used by the mic connector and plug it in. Hit the
PTT on UHF with it set to transmit a sub-audible tone to your local
repeater and monitor the repeater with another radio. Try tapping the radio
and see if you can determine by monitoring the repeater on another radio if
the CTCSS tone cuts out while transmitting. This might help determine if
it's a mechanical thing or related to the actual level of audio being
picked up by the mic.
Do you have a deviation meter? You could measure the transmitted deviation
of the D7. I don't have any figures in front of me, but the deviation of
the transmitted CTCSS tones should be very low. Somewhere around .75 KHz
seems to ring a bell. Then talk into the mic and see what the deviation
looks like. It shouldn't be more than 5 KHz, but talking quietly or loud
should produce quite a range. By whistling into the mic going from a low
frequency whistle to a high frequency whistle (or sweep the range with a
tone generator hooked up to a speaker), you could determine if it's related
to the frequency of the audio or the level of the audio.
If you could hook up a scope to the audio output of a receiver, you could
also watch the audio and see if you can see the CTCSS actually cutting out
when you talk into the mic or tap on the radio. Perhaps there is some
interaction and the deviation of the CTCSS tones goes down when you talk
into the mic. If you could go this route, it would be a good comparison to
try and determine why it happens on UHF only by doing the same test on VHF.
You would think the audio circuitry would be shared on VHF and UHF. I don't
know how much or any circuitry would be shared on VHF ad UHF beyond the
audio stages. Another thing to keep in mind is that it would only take a
shift of a few Hertz of the CTCSS tone to mess things up. However, pinning
that down would be a lot harder unless you could observe it while tapping
the radio with a dummy mic plug connected so there would be no audio from
the mic while you tap the radio.
I see the D7E has a setting for switching the VHF deviation to a narrow
setting. Does your radio have that in "Access Menu 1𤃅"? If so, you could
toggle the setting and see if it had any affect on the transmitted CTCSS
tones on VHF. I presume because isn't mentioned in the manual that there
isn't a deviation setting for UHF on any model.
One more thing... does it make any difference if you set it to "tone" or to
"CTCSS" With tone, it will only transmit the tone. With CTCSS, the tone
decoder will be active on receive. You wouldn't think that it would make any
difference, but you could just give it a try to see if it makes any
difference or not.
I'm sure that more could be done, but the above could be a start to try and
see what's going on.
73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
--
"I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
------------------------------
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