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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.01.07 21:42l 232 Lines 9797 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: [APRSSIG] Vol 31 #20, 1/3
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To : APRDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. RE: New Local Info Initiative (Ralph Milnes)
2. RE: RE: New Local Info Initiative (Robert Bruninga)
3. RE: aprssig New Local Info Inititive (Robert Bruninga)
4. RE: New Local Info Initiative (Robert Bruninga)
5. 315 is dead :( (Joe Della Barba)
6. Re: 315 is dead :( (Jim Duncan)
7. Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (AE5PL Lists)
8. Re: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Earl Needham)
9. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (AE5PL Lists)
10. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Andrew Rich)
11. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (AE5PL Lists)
12. RE: New Local Info Initiative (Dave Baxter)
13. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (AE5PL Lists)
14. RE: New Local Info Initiative (Curt, WE7U)
15. Re: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Phillip B. Pacier)
16. RE: buoys... (Robert Bruninga)
17. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (AE5PL Lists)
18. RE: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Scott Miller)
19. RE: GPS from Sprint data card (Frank Keeney)
20. Re: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Steve Dimse)
21. Re: Periodic Disconnects from APRS-IS (Gregg Wonderly)
22. Re: New Local Info Initiative (Bruce W. Martin)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:45:33 -0500
From: "Ralph Milnes" <ralphmilnes_at_patmedia.net>
Subject: [aprssig] RE: New Local Info Initiative
Bob,
A question about the local-repeater object:
One of the APRS digis here in NJ has phenomenally wide coverage, so much so
that it surpasses the coverage range of several voice repeaters. In fact,
it's possible that a traveler could see the APRS digi's voice object, yet
not be able to hear or reach the voice repeater it was announcing. So, it
would seem that a super wide area digi would NOT be the best station to
announce a local voice repeater.
To me, it seemed better if a home station -- with much less range than the
digi --transmitted an object better tailored for the area. My solution was
to have my KPC3 transmit the object. I used one buffer for the object, set
it to NO hops as you recommend, and had it beaconing every 3-4 minutes, in
hope that someone traveling quickly through my area (near I-287) would see
at least one or two of the voice repeater objects before they passed by me.
(One drawback to this fast beaconing rate was that I received a complaint
about too much QRM from my APRS neighbors. Maybe your suggested rate of 10
minutes would have been adequate. BTW, because of the complaints and because
I had no assurance the beacon was ever used by a traveler, I have since
discontinued transmitting the object.)
Any comments or suggestions about super WIDE digis and my semi-baked
solution?
Ralph KC2RLM
--- original message ---
>Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:56:17 -0500
>From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
>Subject: [aprssig] To: <aprssig_at_lists.tapr.org>
>Message-ID: <01d601c739da$ad5f5bb0$42577a83_at_SGSbb>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>This is the launch of the New Local Info Initiative.
>
>During my 1800 mile round trip last weekend, I discovered that
>most digipeaters have not implemented the recommendations of the
>New-N Paradigm to include the local Voice repeater info in the
>beacon text of their local digipeaters. These objects are
>supposed to show up on the front panel of the traveler's radio
>so he can see what frequency is recommended in that area that he
>is passing through.
>
>Without this info, the passing traveler has no clue where to
>tune his voice radio, and the ARRL repeater directory is
>practically useless because it lists 10,s of thousands of
>repeaters that in most areas have no one listening. The
>objective of the transmission of an APRS local-repeater-object
>is to tell the passing traveler exactly what one-and-only-one
>local repeater is best for the visiting traveler to either find
>someone, get local info, or find a QSO on APRS. See the web
>page:
>
>http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/localinfo.html
>
>It is important to note, that this info can be provided at no
>cost to the network and will not interfere nor collide with any
>other APRS traffic. It is a free no-load part of APRS. The
>reason it is a non interfering addition, is because it is
>originated at the digipeater which is listening to the channel
>and will only transmit the object when the channel is otherwise
>empty. This pushing of locally valuable info to travelers was
>part of the concept of APRS going back in the 1980's but seems
>to have been lost in recent APRS usage which only seems to be
>focused on mobile vehicle tracking. APRS is supposed to be much
>much more.
>
>APRS is supposed to be the single local resource for all local
>information of IMMEDIATE interest to the local user. This does
>NOT mean SPAM from out of area. This is direct information in
>SIMPLEX range of local users informing them of assets available
>to them and local activities going on right now.
>
>I have seen some of these repeaters on the air, but many of them
>are implemented as objects from home clients and using the
>clients default multi-hop path. I was driving down I-81 in
>Virginia and got a 440 repeater object from over 100 miles away
>in a different state. This is simply QRM and of no value to
>anyone. Please, only implement these local voice repeater
>objects at the digi, and ONLY if the voice repeater really is
>the one-and-only one that you would recommend to a traveler in
>simplex range of it.
>
>Anyway, this is a powerful part of APRS. I think it is time we
>start getting it implemented properly. If you havent seen how
>these objects appear to the traveler on his D7 or D700, please
>see the web page above.
>
>Thanks
>Bob, WB4APR
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:15:17 -0500
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] RE: New Local Info Initiative
>One of the APRS digis here in NJ has phenomenally wide
>coverage, so much so that it surpasses the coverage
>range of several voice repeaters.,,,
>So, it would seem... NOT be the best station to
>announce a local voice repeater.
I agree completely. Let the lower more local digi's do that.
>My solution was to have my home KPC3 transmit the object.
>...set it to NO hops... and had it beaconing every
>3-4 minutes, in hope that someone traveling quickly through
>my area would see [it]...
>...I have since discontinued transmitting the object.
Yes, I agree it is best to take that off the air. Your home station was
covering so little area as to make the effort not worth while, and the high
rate was added QRM that collided at the local digi's with other local
traffic that you could not hear.
This is why it is best to let the DIGI's do this, since they can hear the
channel and avoid the collisions and also they are high enough so that a 10
minute rate should inform a 60 MPH traveler reasonably well.
Also, I have cleaned up the LOCAL INFO INITIATIVE web page significantly
today, and added some images and some links to Voice Alert and other mobile
applications.
Bob, WB4APR
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:28:16 -0500
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: [aprssig] RE: aprssig New Local Info Inititive
>Subject: Re: aprssig New Local Info Inititive
>
>I do like the idea BUT unless someone wants to take their
>eyes off the road long enough to read the "distance"
>information from another screen, I don't see it being
>much help.
>
>My reason for that statement is the case where we have
>"fixed" digi stations far north of us still insisting on
>using Wide3-3 in thier path instead of something like
>SSn-N.
The PATH taken by a local voice repeater object must be a different path
(should be direct only!) than the path taken by the digipeater's own
position packets (they use the LTP Paths). That is the beauty of the New-N
paradigm, in that the digipeaters use the different LTP paths for
proportional pathing of their own position beacons. That way, the
digipeatrs show up locally frequently, and less frequently farther out.
The repeater's Btext that contains the voice repeater object must only go
out according to the UNPROTO path which should be set to "direct" with no
hops... (UNPROTO APN383 with no VIA's. Here APN383 implies this packet is
originated by a KPC-3 version 8.3 TNC).
>I can see stations at my house that are the better part of
>360 miles from me. If I where mobile, I'd see that beacon
>and think it's local, when in fact it's very far away.
Ah, but these voice-repeater objects should only be transmitted direct.
Therefore they should not be seen outside of the simplex range of the
digipeater that is announcing them. You wouldn't see them that far away.
>I would hope that everyone would figure out that maybe a
>seperate beacon text with a local path of SS2-1 might be a
>better solution than WideN-n.
Yes, that is the design. These Voice Repeater objects should not be
transmitted even with 1 hop. That takes them farther away than anyone can
work that voice repeater. These voice repeater objects should not go via
any hops. Just direct only.
If you are seeing home stations out 360 miles, then they must not be
following the New-N paradigm recommendations, to keep their path short to
avoid this kind of DX nuisance.
>I'm not sure what the best answer is, but I do know that
>adding repeater info to a regular beacon with a path of
>WIDE3-3 is going to cause misconception of what is actually
>local IMHO.
You are absolutely correct. These objects should be DIRECT with no hops at
all as indicated on the web page:
http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/localinfo.html
Thanks
Bob, WB4APR
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