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ZL3AI > APRDIG 10.01.07 10:29l 222 Lines 9418 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: [APRSSIG] Vol 31 #9, 3/4
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From: ZL3AI@ZL2BAU.#79.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:00:47 -0500
From: "Brian Webster" <bwebster_at_wirelessmapping.com>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] I Apologize!
The problem with the data they produce is that it is funded by the
taxpayers dollars. This means the taxpayers own the copyright. So the data
should be free. The mapping data the US government produces is created in
this way. That is how we get free mapping like the TIGER lines. The
American public owns the copyright they should not be charged for the data
if the project was funded with public dollars. If it is corporate or
individual tax dollars makes no difference, the taxes were collected in the
same way by our government that we elected and that we as a country agreed
to by our constitution, the government is not a private entity and
therefore can not hold the rights to the data. Do not be fooled in to
thinking that they can sell the data to create revenue, the data and
operations which create it were funded with public dollars. Many may argue
differently but think about this in the most simple sense and it seems very
clear. Taxpayer funded equals taxpayer access for free, anything else is
being taxed twice. If they don't like this then they can make it a for fee
based system completely of which nobody will like because then the fees
would be very high due to the reality of the cost of doing business. For
private business to think the government should not release the data to the
public without charging a fee is just as absurd, why should they have
exclusive rights to something they did not pay for. A government by the
people for the people last time I read.... Off soapbox now, this thread is
way off topic.........
Thank You,
Brian N2KGC
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:03:07 -0800
From: "Ray McKnight" <shortsheep_at_worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] I Apologize!
You're still missing the point.
NWS wasn't chartered simply to give the public weather forecasts. As with
many government services, their PRIMARY purpose is to support other
government agencies. Whether or not our income tax funds their budget, NWS
primarily lives to serve agencies like the FAA and our military. I feel
much better about whatever funds we spend going to ensure that the
commercial airline pilot in the cockpit of my flight has an accurate
forecast, that the Space Shuttle probably won't crash on my house during
reentry - does it really matter that much if johnny's soccer match gets
rained out? I think one of the biggest reasons for NWS was to help reduce
the tremendous loss of life and revenue to commercial shipping - thus, the
NOAA Weather Broadcasts. The other stuff is just icing on the cake, and I
thank them for taking the time to do it.
Be glad you live in a country that has a NWS - a lot of places don't, or at
least can't afford more than a handful of forecasters and little equipment.
I do agree with your point of commercial interests who derive the majority
of their data from agencies like NWS for free then package it and sell it
to the public. I think it's wrong, at least unethical, but obviously not
illegal at this time.
They should pay for the data. But that's just my opinion. Even if you
file a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request, you have to pay a fee for
some poor schmuck to research the data, make copies and compile it. But as
a general rule fees that the government collects don't stay with their own
agency, thus they incur all the work with no reimbursement.
And when is this going to happen - this having to pay for NWS forecasts?
Are they getting their own Pay-Per-View channel? That's one of the only
good things about our economy - you can simply decide NOT to do business
with folks that resell government data.
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:31:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tyler Allison" <tyler_at_allisonhouse.com>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] I Apologize!
I've wanted to stay out of this spat but I can't help myself since
accusations are being thrown around by people who don't have all the facts.
I happen to be a small business that makes money off so called "free" NWS
information, so I actually know how the system(s) work.
>The problem with the data they produce is that it is funded by the
>taxpayers dollars.
Correct.
>This means the taxpayers own the copyright.
Not correct. Talk to your local lawyer. Just because your tax money was
used to "buy" something doesn't mean the government owns the copyright.
Otherwise we'd all be entitled to lots of Microsoft products.
>So the data should be free.
It is free. Always has been.
>The mapping data the US government produces is created in this way. That
>is how we get free mapping like the TIGER lines. The American public
>owns the copyright they should not be charged for the data if the project
>was funded with public dollars.
You never have paid for 'free' weather data.
>Taxpayer funded equals taxpayer access for free, anything else is being
>taxed twice.
You have free access to the data. Just like you have free access to
government documents via a FOIA requests. What you do not have, is the
"right" to show up every morning and ask for a custom forecast for your
house. If you want a custom forecast you pay for it. Just like if you want
the data of a FOIA request you pay for it.
Folks seem to think that simply because the data is there and "free" for
the taking, that they have some kind of "right" to have it hand delivered
by a limo without lifting a finger.
>For private business to think the government should not release the data
>to the public without charging a fee is just as absurd, why should they
>have exclusive rights to something they did not pay for.
The NWS makes 99% of their data available to the general public free of
charge. However *YOU* must pay to come get it. What they do not have is the
ability to provide that data 24x7x365 in the myriad of ways that the public
wants it. So what the NWS does is provide low hanging fruit
(www.weather.gov) and then they provide the data to the private sector for
anything else. The private sector has to pay to come get the data too. If
you have a big enough checkbook you can buy a T1 yourself and get all the
data your heart can handle directly from the NWS. The private sector then
packages, cleans, refines, whatever and makes it available in whatever
format you want. Say this with me slowly....
....YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE DATA...
You are paying for the format and pretty pictures that the free data was
used to generate. If you have the time and money, you too can have access
to free data.
When you watch the weather channel or go to a weather website, somebody had
to write the website, someone had to buy servers, someone had to buy
bandwidth, someone had to pay salaries to private meteorologists to do
detailed forecast, etc...etc...etc. *THAT* is not and can not be free.
I do however agree that there are some large weather companies who would
like nothing more than to push the NWS out of the "low hanging fruit"
market as well so that there is *NO* access of any kind by the general
public. That I do not agree with.
-Tyler
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:56:25 -0500
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] unzipping cmaps.zip
>I do not remember quite how to unzip cmaps28.zip to the
>version of APRSdos i am using whether i use the pkunzip -d
>command or just pkunzip cmaps28.zip to
Just use PKUNZIP -d to unzip it INTO the APRS directory (not the maps or
any other directory). Using the -D will cause all the files to then go
into all the right subdirectories if you start by unzipping it into the
APRS main directory.
Good luck!
Bob, Wb4APR
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:03:30 +0100
From: "Jan T. Pharo" <la2bba_at_jpharo.net>
Subject: Re: Eagle Scout Icon - Was Re: [aprssig] APRS data for Scout Events
On 08.01.2007 19:43:29, TAPR APRS Mailing List
(aprssig_at_lists.tapr.org) wrote:
>Bob being an Eagle Scout I think it's great that you being the APRS
>guy are trying to use it in BSA events. One question I have is I know
>we have a Boy Scout and Girl Scout "icon" but would it not be cool to
>have a Eagle Scout Icon for APRS??
The term "Eagle Scout" is probably not in use in other scout associations
than the BSA, so I wouldn't think it wise to add such a symbol.
(btw; I have made alternative icon graphics for the two scout icons: One
with the boys' world association badge, and one with the girls' world
association badge.)
--
73 de Jan, LA2BBA
Hvaler, Norway
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:15:47 -0500
From: "Brian Webster" <bwebster_at_wirelessmapping.com>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] I Apologize!
Tyler,
I am in complete agreement with you (especially about not being spoon fed
the information for free, it does cost to deliver the data), I also work
with a great deal free data and use it to produce output of a specific
nature, I get paid for my time to create the "new custom" products. My
reference to the public owning the copyright is for the DATA the government
CREATES using taxpayer dollars, not products that the government purchases
where others own the copyright.
Thank You,
Brian N2KGC
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