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ZL3AI > APRDIG 25.09.06 01:15l 294 Lines 10175 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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To : APRDIG@WW
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:15:09 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm
>No, WIDEn-N doesn't necessarily work here. I referred
>to Denmark (OZ) where they actively STOP any
>digipeating on WIDE (quite a few OZ digis
>beacon "NO DIGI ON WIDE")
|But it is important for people to understand that WIDE
|and WIDEn-N are completely different methods.
|
|RELAY is simple digipeating with no dupe suppression
|WIDE is a callsign-substituting type of method.
|WIDEn-N is a hop-counting method & dupe suppression.
|TRACEn-N is hop counting & suppression & Traceing
|
|We wanted only the last one:
| N-Hopping & Dupe suppression & Path Tracing
|
|The choice was:
|
|a) try to change ALL the users from WIDEn-N to TRACEn-N
|
|b) change just the digis by eliminating TRACEn-N
|and changing its name to WIDEn-N.
|
|Since we were changing all the digis anyway, it simply
|made sense to swap WIDEn-N and TRACEn-N and then eliminate
|TRACEn-N. This was much easier to change the digis than to
|change the users. Users don't' like "change"...
|
|This eliminated all the problems with all the other
|legacy paths. RELAY, WIDE, TRACE and TRACEn-N were all
|eliminated and now we only have one path, WIDEn-N that
|works everywhere and is N-HOPPING, DUPE SUPPRESSING
|and PATH TRACEING.
Hope that helps.
Bob
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:29:47 +0200
From: "Jan T. Pharo" <la2bba_at_jpharo.net>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm
"Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>, Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:15:09
-0400:
(Jan)
>>No, WIDEn-N doesn't necessarily work here. I referred
>>to Denmark (OZ) where they actively STOP any
>>digipeating on WIDE (quite a few OZ digis
>>beacon "NO DIGI ON WIDE")
>
>|But it is important for people to understand that WIDE
>|and WIDEn-N are completely different methods.
Right. What they are doing, is digipeating on neither WIDE nor WIDEn-N
--
73 de Jan, LA2BBA
Hvaler, Norway
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:32:59 +0200
From: "Jan T. Pharo" <la2bba_at_jpharo.net>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32 and New-N for
the USA
"Jim" <jim_at_stuckinthemud.org>, Thu, 21 Sep 2006 19:42:14 +0100:
>Surely the whole point of the n-n system is that the smart part of the digi
>recognises it and processes accordingly. If its traceability that's required
>then just enable callsign substitution on WIDE as well as TRACE.
The UIFLOOD on national (or, in the US, State) abbreviation, e.g. GBn-N,
isn't possible (at least not in all software, like UI-View) if you keep
both TRACEn-N and WIDEn-N.
--
73 de Jan, LA2BBA
Hvaler, Norway
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:37:17 -0700
From: "Cap Pennell" <cap_at_cruzio.com>
Subject: RE: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32 and New-N for
the USA
The only thing about taking out those ?-1 aliases is then they're left as
artifacts in the path history indicating the original excessive path.
WIDE7-1 becomes N5IN-4*,WIDE7 instead of being "disappeared" completely like
when they're included in the ALIAS= where then WIDE7-1 becomes only N5IN-4*
..
A N5IN-4 "W2,MNn" digi could use either
(?-1's left out)
ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2,WIDE6-6,WIDE6-5
,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5-3,WIDE5-2,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WID
E4-2,,WIDE3-3,WIDE3-2
or
(?-1's left in)
ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2,WIDE7-1,WIDE6-6
,WIDE6-5,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE6-1,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5-3,WIDE5-2,WID
E5-1,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WIDE4-2,WIDE4-1,WIDE3-3,WIDE3-2,WIDE3-1
hi hi
73, Cap
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:40:35 -0500
From: Ron Stordahl <ron.stordahl_at_digikey.com>
Subject: Re: [ui-view] Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32
and New-N for the USA
Cap...in my uiview32.ini file I have my beacon comment as:
BEACON_COMMENT=PHG6360 W3,MNn Thief River Falls MN 146.85-
Notice I have no "/" following the PHG6360 nor after the MNn. I believe
it's Bob Bruninga WB4APR's recommendation not to use the "/". I don't
know why however.
Ron, N5IN
Cap Pennell wrote:
>Right, for a MiNnesota (UIFLOOD=MN) "Wn,MNn" digi. And to make it a
>"W2,MNn" digi you could add WIDE3-3,WIDE3-2 to the list already at ALIAS>
>And in the UI-View32 program:
>Setup,Station Setup,Beacon comment:PHG5110/W2,NCAn/Minneapolis <substitute
>your actual PHG and City here>
>Setup,Station Setup,Symbol:No.Digi O'ly:S
>
>73, Cap KE6AFE
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:48:40 -0500
From: Ron Stordahl <ron.stordahl_at_digikey.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32 and New-N for
the USA
Cap
The reply from John indicated that there might be some significant re
duplicate checking, which I indicated I didn't understand. Perhaps I
should not have been to quick to make a change. If you see no issue
here regarding duplicating checking I will admit I would rather have the
WideN-1 'literals' in the list as I initially did.
Ron, N5IN
Cap Pennell wrote:
>The only thing about taking out those ?-1 aliases is then they're left as
>artifacts in the path history indicating the original excessive path.
>WIDE7-1 becomes N5IN-4*,WIDE7 instead of being "disappeared" completely like
>when they're included in the ALIAS= where then WIDE7-1 becomes only N5IN-4*
>.
>
>A N5IN-4 "W2,MNn" digi could use either
>(?-1's left out)
>ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2,WIDE6-6,WIDE6-5
>,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5-3,WIDE5-2,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WID
>E4-2,,WIDE3-3,WIDE3-2
>or
>(?-1's left in)
>ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2,WIDE7-1,WIDE6-6
>,WIDE6-5,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE6-1,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5-3,WIDE5-2,WID
>E5-1,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WIDE4-2,WIDE4-1,WIDE3-3,WIDE3-2,WIDE3-1
>
>hi hi
>73, Cap
>>-----Original Message-----
>>John
>>
>>That's a good point (although how that effects duplicate checking I do
>>not understand). But I do see that WIDE7-1 etc would be used up and
>>thus need not be in the list. Thus this should be revised to:
>>
>>ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WIDE4-2,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5-3,WIDE5
>>-2,WIDE6-6,WIDE6-5,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5
>>,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2
>>
>>Ill update my uiview32.ini file accordingly.
>>
>>Beyond that change doesn't anyone else see anything out of compliance
>>with New-N?
>>
>>It still does irk me that WIDE1-1,WIDE3-3 gets 4 digipeats on an N=3
>>limited digipeater. Seems to me that the recommendation should be to
>>configure the digipeater for N=2 and then recommend WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 to
>>get 3 digipeats if you need it.
>>
>>Ron, N5IN
>>
>>John Habbinga wrote:
>>
>>>You do not need to include WIDE7-1,WIDE6-1,WIDE5-1, or WIDE4-1. These
>>>will decrement once and terminate. Including them only serves to
>>>further inhibit duplicate checking amongst other digipeaters in the
>>>area.
>>>
>>>On 9/21/06, Ron Stordahl <ron.stordahl_at_digikey.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>ALIAS=N5IN-4,WIDE4-4,WIDE4-3,WIDE4-2,WIDE4-1,WIDE5-5,WIDE5-4,WIDE5
>>-3,WIDE5-2,WIDE5-1,WIDE6-6,WIDE6-5,WIDE6-4,WIDE6-3,WIDE6-2,WIDE6-1
>>,WIDE7-7,WIDE7-6,WIDE7-5,WIDE7-4,WIDE7-3,WIDE7-2,WIDE7-1
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:36:54 -0400
From: "Robert Bruninga" <bruninga_at_usna.edu>
Subject: RE: [ui-view] Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32
and New-N for the USA
>Cap...in my uiview32.ini file I have my beacon comment as:
>
>BEACON_COMMENT=PHG6360 W3,MNn Thief River Falls MN 146.85-
>
>Notice I have no "/" following the PHG6360 nor after the MNn.
>I believe it's Bob Bruninga WB4APR's recommendation not to
>use the "/". I don't know why however.
The original APRS idea there was to have a "/" separator, but
It is free text at that point and doesn't matter. I think
Leaving it out and using a space will buy you one more
Character when composing BEACONS to show up on the D7 or D700
Screen. They will ignore the leading space in the 10 byte
Window, whereas putting the "/" in there will consume one
Extra byte in the beacon display...
Bob
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:50:19 -0500
From: "John Habbinga" <kc5zrq_at_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] RE: New EU Paradigm also Uiview32 and New-N for
the USA
Ron, when digipeaters are using WIDEn-N, then they will decrement by one,
like WIDE3-3 would become WIDE3-2, then the next digipeater would decrement
WIDE3-2 to be WIDE3-1, then the third digipeater would decrement WIDE3-1 to
WIDE3* and the digipeating would end.
If WIDE3-3, WIDE3-2 and WIDE3-1 were in the alias of all the digipeaters,
then all the digipeaters would repeat the WIDE3-3 and stop. Collisions
would ensue because many TNCs will not wait and listen if digipeating an
alias, but they will if decrementing a WIDEn-N.
I have 4 digipeaters in my area. We tried to make new paradigm work by
using all aliases. It didn't work. Because there was no duplicate
checking of digipeated aliases with Kantronics TNCs each digipeater
repeated the same packet 3 or 4 times. So if one guy came through and
transmitted a beacon with WIDE3-3, then each digipeater would repeat it as
many as 3 times, making 12 transmissions for every one beacon. We ended
that experiment pretty quickly.
So the answer for the NEWn-N paradigm isn't perfect, although it is much
better than before. At least you can minimize that aspect of the problem
by not using WIDEn-1 as an alias. Just let the digipeaters decrement
normally.
On 9/21/06, Ron Stordahl <ron.stordahl_at_digikey.com> wrote:
>Cap
>
>The reply from John indicated that there might be some significant re
>duplicate checking, which I indicated I didn't understand. Perhaps I
>should not have been to quick to make a change. If you see no issue
>here regarding duplicating checking I will admit I would rather have the
>WideN-1 'literals' in the list as I initially did.
>
>Ron, N5IN
------------------------------
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