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ZL3AI > APRDIG 21.09.06 02:11l 220 Lines 10081 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: ZL3AI@ZL2BAU.#87.NZL.OC
To : APRDIG@WW
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 03:12:18 +0200
From: Gregg Wonderly <gregg_at_wonderly.org>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
Jim Lux wrote:
>Gregg makes some comments about the availability of software for a
>variety of environments, and that triggers some comments about software
>development, not necessarily directed at Gregg personally, but at a
>general misunderstanding of how and why software gets developed.
Hi Jim, I guess I stirred up some emotions. Without going after every
point that you enumerated in your response, let me just say that I've been
developing software in a number of environments over the past 20+ years. I
have a masters degree in software development focused in areas of operating
systems and computer language development. I've developed windows
software, unix software extensively, and 10 years ago started using Java
for all of my core application development. So, I have some experience to
draw on for my opinions.
If you will search on the internet for "gregg wonderly java jini software"
you will find that I have about 10 open source projects visible in the
communities related to my interests. These projects, include a complete
replacement for Echolink, written in Java, which runs, without ANY porting
needed on windows, linux and mac os-x. Because Java provides a nice
abstraction to the sound system, I don't have to know about how that works.
Because Java provides a "look and feel" abstraction, the OSes native
graphics subsystem is abstracted for me and all the font sizing, spacing
and layout is taken care of for me.
When I started openlink, I had some free moments. When I got GUI done
after a couple of weeks of spare time work, I started looking around for
PSK-31 libraries to copy by translating to Java. As I said, unfortunately,
these libraries are optimized with ASM code, or are otherwise tied into a
particular environment.
On any of the existing OSes that are in consumer computers, you will always
have scheduling pauses related to timesharing of the CPU. Your comments
about the speed of Java seem to be based on old experience or some third
party comments. I have large scale production systems running on Java with
massive throughput and not problems with performance. The Sun Just In Time
(JIT) compiler can typically equal or better many C and C++ compilers of
the same algorithms because of the depth of analysis and the fact that they
compile with runtime knowledge about the actual execution paths and
frequency of passes through the code.
I stick by my comments that there is no reason that Amatuer radio software
should not be being developed as cross platform.
We all had to study for and take a test to demonstrate our knowledge.
Taking the time to learn more about software development seems like a good
idea to me. I've spent my life learning about software and contributing
software for others to use freely.
Allowing everyone to take advantage of your efforts is one way to let
others spend their time being productive doing something besides repeating
your work so that they can have the benefits. If you can't spend the time
to learn how to do something different than what you are doing now, I
accept that as a fact of your life.
I still think it's a good idea for all Amatuer Radio software to be
portable across OSes.
>While the sentiments expressed by Gregg are wonderful, there's a fairly
>big gap in the ability to do "write once, run everywhere" software,
>except for the most trivial of applications. Web browsers are about the
>closest thing that you see, and you'll note that there are numerous
>incompatibilities, even with fairly simple HTML. There are also "market
>realities" to consider, some of which I touched on initially.
Jim, maybe you can tell me which Java application(s) you have developed.
How many lines of code, type of application etc. Which versions of the
Java specification has it ran on, and what problems you encountered? I'm
always interested in hearing what other's experiences have been using Java.
You seem to have some opinions about Java and I'd like to learn what
experience those are based on so that I can better understand them.
Thanks for sharing you thoughts and experiences.
Gregg Wonderly
W5GGW
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:43:22 -0400
From: Brian Riley <brianbr_at_mac.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
Bravo, well said, and well done... as a mainly Mac, but PC and Linux and
lotsa little MCUs guy. I really appreciate it when I see these kind of
efforts.
---
cheers... 73 de brian riley, n1bq, underhill center, vermont
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 21:56:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tyler Allison" <tyler_at_allisonhouse.com>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
>Jim Lux wrote:
>>Gregg makes some comments about the availability of software for a
>>variety of environments, and that triggers some comments about software
>>development, not necessarily directed at Gregg personally, but at a
>>general misunderstanding of how and why software gets developed.
>
>Hi Jim, I guess I stirred up some emotions.
I had a rather lengthy rant of my own in response, but fanning the flames
of a JAVA war are not needed on the sig. For once...I'm not going to send
it. My mom would be very proud.
Suffice it to say...until you pay my salary..don't presume to tell me what
to work on. And if you do pay my salary..you better ask nicer than that. I
do more than my fair share of "charity" work in the development arena and
I'll thank you not to spit on my work.
-Tyler
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:19:12 +0200
From: Gregg Wonderly <gregg_at_wonderly.org>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
Tyler Allison wrote:
>>Jim Lux wrote:
>>
>>>Gregg makes some comments about the availability of software for a
>>>variety of environments, and that triggers some comments about software
>>>development, not necessarily directed at Gregg personally, but at a
>>>general misunderstanding of how and why software gets developed.
>>
>>Hi Jim, I guess I stirred up some emotions.
>
>I had a rather lengthy rant of my own in response, but fanning the flames
>of a JAVA war are not needed on the sig. For once...I'm not going to send
>it. My mom would be very proud.
Well I certainly didn't aim anything at you Tyler. I simply tried to say
that I think is better to aim for cross platform portability when
developing software for amatuer radio, because of the diversity of users.
You might not be able, or inclined to do that, and as I said to Jim, I
accept that fact of your life. Thanks for the things that you are able to
contribute!
>Suffice it to say...until you pay my salary..don't presume to tell me what
>to work on. And if you do pay my salary..you better ask nicer than that. I
>do more than my fair share of "charity" work in the development arena and
>I'll thank you not to spit on my work.
I am making suggestions of where time could be spent to keep duplicate
effort from being wasted on cloning software for other OSes/environments.
If that's not something that you find worth consideration, fine. Maybe
others do.
Gregg Wonderly
W5GGW
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:10:15 -0400
From: Steve Huston <huston_at_astro.princeton.edu>
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Rant - Cross platform portability
On 9/17/06 9:56 PM, Tyler Allison wrote:
>I'll thank you not to spit on my work.
I don't think Gregg is trying to put anyone down here. Jim has a very
valid argument, that developing software takes time. And you've apparently
worked on projects in your free time as well; this is commendable.
However, what is the "point" of doing development such as that? In some
cases, the author of the project has a need they want to fill, so they
write something for their own use. Sometimes they release that software,
either as free, open source, or shareware, for others to use and benefit
from also.
But if you're writing something, not just for yourself, but with the
knowledge that many will want to use it, or because you know it fills a
void that many have expressed, would it not make sense to write it in such
a way that the most people can benefit? Take logging software for example.
I've seen quite a few programs that run on Windows only (our club
religiously uses one such program). There's others that run on Linux, Mac
OS, or both; and a few of those run on Windows as well. A fact is a fact,
and the fact is that there's more Windows desktops out there than anything
else, so if you're writing for the largest user base you're going to write
for Windows. But if the problem you've seen is that the software out there
doesn't fit your needs, and you're starting from scratch, why not include
the others as well? For some projects it's admittedly simpler than others
- Gregg mentioned finding PSK libraries that are platform agnostic
difficult, while something that logs QSOs might not require specialized
libraries - but if you're trying to write a program to make a certain group
happy, because there's a void that needs filling, why not make even more
happy and make it cross platforms?
In some cases, it's logistical; you don't have access to other compute
platforms, so you've no way to test it, or compile it. But I think the
point Gregg was going for is that it's better to try if you can, rather
than just think, "Well, most people use $FOO anyway, why bother writing for
something else," or, "I only run $myOS, so why include these others."
--
Steve Huston - W2SRH - Unix Sysadmin, Dept. of Astrophysical Sciences
Princeton University | ICBM Address: 40.346525 -74.651285
126 Peyton Hall |"On my ship, the Rocinante, wheeling through
Princeton, NJ 08544 | the galaxies; headed for the heart of Cygnus,
(609) 258-7375 | headlong into mystery." -Rush, 'Cygnus X-1'
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